2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[selvam_e2002]

secret settlement with FIA and RB. This what going to happen. FIA never transparent previous rule breaches so nothing will happen here. It seems over hype from team and media.

[Just_a_fan]

Toto has always been the most vocal towards other teams, even rumours. Binotto just jumping on the band wagon. Why arent the other team principles coming out and saying the same thing? I wouldnt trust anything that comes off the Ferrari pitwall/media interviews, we've seen plenty evidence of that this year with car failures and the 'excuses' they have come out with.

I wouldn’t expect any team to throw these accusations without having plenty to back it up. It was done against Ferrari in 2019 with the engine saga, and that turned out to be true. Two teams were vocal back then, Mercedes and Red Bull, since they were mostly affected by the potential cheating by being direct competitors.

If the accounting process is confidential within the FIA, then how has these rumours been found out? Of course - they are complete speculation

The teams have a fairly good idea how much things cost so they'll look at their own setup and say "that would take us well over budget, so how aren't they over budget?"

Anyone working in a particular field knows reasonably what stuff costs in that field. It's how one can look at quotes and know that someone is under-quoting and someone else is profit loading.

[Just_a_fan]

secret settlement with FIA and RB. This what going to happen. FIA never transparent previous rule breaches so nothing will happen here. It seems over hype from team and media.

Such a settlement will be the same as last time - an admission that cheating happened but the FIA is too scared to say so.

[chrisc90]

I wouldn’t expect any team to throw these accusations without having plenty to back it up. It was done against Ferrari in 2019 with the engine saga, and that turned out to be true. Two teams were vocal back then, Mercedes and Red Bull, since they were mostly affected by the potential cheating by being direct competitors.

If the accounting process is confidential within the FIA, then how has these rumours been found out? Of course - they are complete speculation

The teams have a fairly good idea how much things cost so they'll look at their own setup and say "that would take us well over budget, so how aren't they over budget?"

Anyone working in a particular field knows reasonably what stuff costs in that field. It's how one can look at quotes and know that someone is under-quoting and someone else is profit loading.

True. Sure there is many ways around things like that though. The costs arent going to be equal between teams. Probably up to around 10% margin on costings between teams id imagine.

[Just_a_fan]

If the accounting process is confidential within the FIA, then how has these rumours been found out? Of course - they are complete speculation

The teams have a fairly good idea how much things cost so they'll look at their own setup and say "that would take us well over budget, so how aren't they over budget?"

Anyone working in a particular field knows reasonably what stuff costs in that field. It's how one can look at quotes and know that someone is under-quoting and someone else is profit loading.

True. Sure there is many ways around things like that though. The costs arent going to be equal between teams. Probably up to around 10% margin on costings between teams id imagine.

I'd be surprised if it's that much.

[chrisc90]

The teams have a fairly good idea how much things cost so they'll look at their own setup and say "that would take us well over budget, so how aren't they over budget?"

Anyone working in a particular field knows reasonably what stuff costs in that field. It's how one can look at quotes and know that someone is under-quoting and someone else is profit loading.

True. Sure there is many ways around things like that though. The costs arent going to be equal between teams. Probably up to around 10% margin on costings between teams id imagine.

I'd be surprised if it's that much.

Who knows. Only the teams will know.

I guess one way you could do it, and sure ive seen something mentioned about how RB have pioneered a new weave of carbon thats lighter and stronger is get another division to research it as its not directly related to the costs of the F1 team. Or you have a supplier that can supply you with carbon sheet/glues/materials at a fraction of the cost. obviously that company takes the hit on the 'market price' of it. But I imagine things like that supply chain can be very easily manipulated to save costs to the 'F1 Team' and their costings.

[Just_a_fan]

True. Sure there is many ways around things like that though. The costs arent going to be equal between teams. Probably up to around 10% margin on costings between teams id imagine.

I'd be surprised if it's that much.

Who knows. Only the teams will know.

I guess one way you could do it, and sure ive seen something mentioned about how RB have pioneered a new weave of carbon thats lighter and stronger is get another division to research it as its not directly related to the costs of the F1 team. Or you have a supplier that can supply you with carbon sheet/glues/materials at a fraction of the cost. obviously that company takes the hit on the 'market price' of it. But I imagine things like that supply chain can be very easily manipulated to save costs to the 'F1 Team' and their costings.

I'd be surprised if such things would be allowed. A supplier effectively giving you free material is not a normal commercial position. Using development work that is only related to F1 but done outside Would also be against the rules. Otherwise each team would just set up a second company and channel all the costs through it.

[chrisc90]

I'd be surprised if it's that much.

Who knows. Only the teams will know.

I guess one way you could do it, and sure ive seen something mentioned about how RB have pioneered a new weave of carbon thats lighter and stronger is get another division to research it as its not directly related to the costs of the F1 team. Or you have a supplier that can supply you with carbon sheet/glues/materials at a fraction of the cost. obviously that company takes the hit on the 'market price' of it. But I imagine things like that supply chain can be very easily manipulated to save costs to the 'F1 Team' and their costings.

I'd be surprised if such things would be allowed. A supplier effectively giving you free material is not a normal commercial position. Using development work that is only related to F1 but done outside Would also be against the rules. Otherwise each team would just set up a second company and channel all the costs through it.

Would be interesting. Clearly there must be some interpretation in the financial regs and ive no idea at what is allowed/disallowed and the documnt/regs are probably worded too much for the average joe public to understand.

You can almost guarantee that teams with 'side projects', Merc, Ferrari, Aston, RB etc who have all these mega prototype cars will be using at least some for F1 research/development.

[mendis]

secret settlement with FIA and RB. This what going to happen. FIA never transparent previous rule breaches so nothing will happen here. It seems over hype from team and media.

Such a settlement will be the same as last time - an admission that cheating happened but the FIA is too scared to say so.

Does it matter? Whatever FIA would say, those who want to hear it a certain way, wouldn't be happy if it isn't that way, even if FIA says the truth.

[ispano6]

Red Bull could argue that the damage caused by Bottas to Max's and Checo's RB16bs in Hungary and the complete loss of Max's Silverstone chassis forced extra expenses that amounted to $3M worth and unfair to have to shoulder the damage caused by another team.

Horner has already stated that the books came in under the spending cap, but Wolff seems to insist to know that Red Bull is over budget and kissing up to Sulayem. AND he wants last, this, and next year champions won by Red Bull to be in question because of exceeding the cost cap. I expect non of those to come to happen.

If you’re actually paying close attention, it’s not just Wolff, who hasn’t made any accusations. He’s speaking entirely hypothetically.

Mekies of Ferrari, on the other hand, has publicly spoken with certainty saying he knows 2 teams violated the cap.

https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/stat ... 5uz99KFjMA

https://twitter.com/andihaupt1/status/1 ... G5uz99KFjM

What? Wolff saying two teams exceeded the budget and also knew about preparing a second stay speaks volumes regarding wolffs connections to insider information from within the FIA. Don't tell me to pay close attention and turn a blind eye to the apparent intentions of Wolff and his FIA assistant.

[chrisc90]

Someone mentioned inflation previously (now deleted) and I thought id have a quick look in the regs for what is said about the topic.

The FIA call this as inflation, which they get from the IMF.org. The regs are interesting as it does make reference to the cost cap being tweaked to allow for inflation.

The Cost Cap
2.3 The amount of the "Cost Cap" shall be as follows, in each case adjusted (if applicable) for
Indexation:
(a) in the Full Year Reporting Period ending on 31 December 2021:
(i) in the event that 21 Competitions take place in that Full Year Reporting Period,
US Dollars 145,000,000

The budgets are:

2.4 Where an F1 Team has a Presentation Currency other than US Dollars, the Cost Cap for that
F1 Team shall be converted from US Dollars into that F1 Team’s Presentation Currency at the
Initial Applicable Rate. For illustrative purposes, the amount of the Cost Cap in selected
Presentation Currencies for the Full Year Reporting Period ending on 31 December 2021, as
referred to in Article 2.3(a) (assuming 21 Competitions and Indexation of zero) is as follows:
Presentation Currency
US Dollars 145,000,000
Pounds Sterling 114,254,000
Euros 132,034,000
Swiss Francs 144,422,000

Note the phrase (assuming 21 Competitions and Indexation of zero)

That rule specifically says the cost cap can be adjusted for indexation.

Now the same document classes indexation as:

"Indexation" means:
(a) in respect of the Full Year Reporting Period ending on 31 December 2021, the higher of zero
and the amount by which the September 2020 average annual inflation rate as published on
the International Monetary Fund website for the G7 countries exceeds 3.0%; and
(b) in respect of the Full Year Reporting Periods ending on 31 December 2022 and 31 December
2023, the higher of zero and the amount by which the average annual inflation rate as
published on the International Monetary Fund website for the G7 countries for September of
the preceding Full Year Reporting Period exceeds 3.0%; and
(c) in respect of the Full Year Reporting Period ending on 31 December 2024 and each subsequent
Full Year Reporting Period, the rate to be applied in respect of the applicable Full Year
Reporting Period, as determined and communicated by the Cost Cap Administration via a
Determination no later than 31 October of the preceding Full Year Reporting Period.
The average annual inflation rate for the G7 countriesis published on the International Monetary Fund
website at https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/PCPIPCH@WEO/MAE. If such rate ceases to exist, the Cost Cap Administration will use an alternative rate which it deems to be reasonably
comparable.

So the rate can be adjusted if it goes above 3% (i believe). That rate was 5.4% in 2021 (not sure what date the IMF take that as) and 7.4% in 2022. So maybe teams can adjust their cost cap to allow for that increase in inflation/indexation.

I mean I could be completely barking up the wrong tree, and it probably needs someone with more accounting/costing background to look at that to make a proper conclusion to it, but that regulation document doesnt say WHO is responsible for adjusting the cost cap based on indexation/inflation. So there is a chance that teams can do this themselves, based on the figures on the suggested website, to adjust their budget to suit.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -04-30.pdf

[PlatinumZealot]

Inflation adjustments are single digits. The alleged breach is way more by the sounds of things.

I am urging everyone to please wait until investigations are completed.

[ispano6]

Either way, it has nothing to do with the results of the 2022 championship. The Red Bull racing team should not be distracted by the off-track shenanigans of the teams trying to cause a stir. Though Red Bull should push for an investigation into how some team principals have access to secret information. I don't doubt the billionaire Wolff will exert his influence in swaying the FIA decisions. Wolff tries to paint a picture that his teams are squeaky clean but let's not forget Aston Martin and Mercedes had their brake-duct CAD sharing scandal. Marko is right - Wolff holds a grudge and won't let it go and is hell bent on defaming Red Bull.

[Just_a_fan]

Has either Ferrari or Mercefes (or their respective representatives) named Red Bull? They've said " it's common knowledge in the paddock that two teams went over the cap". The media has taken that and done it's usual hyperbole nonsense. Then Horner has threatened action against Mercedes / Ferrari. That smacks of a guilty conscience on Horner's part.

As to how it's common knowledge- people move teams, people talk to friends in other teams, information is portable and spreads quickly. No need for conspiracy nonsense about the FIA telling Toto.

[n_anirudh]

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/s ... r-cost-cap

^^Its implied here?