Ferrari F1-75

[PhillipM]

The orientation of the carbon fibres does not matter at all, carbon weave structure is made to absorbs the forces in all lines/straights equally

That is absolute nonsense, especially for a technical forum.

[organic]

The orientation of the carbon fibres has also changed.

The orientation of the carbon fibres does not matter at all, carbon weave structure is made to absorbs the forces in all lines/straights equally

[.poz]

The orientation of the carbon fibres does not matter at all, carbon weave structure is made to absorbs the forces in all lines/straights equally

That is absolute nonsense, especially for a technical forum.

He is right

a 90 degree change in orientation is almost negligible

but the most important thing is that you only see the external layer of carbon fiber; that give you no information about the number and the orientation of layers inside.

[christian.falavena]

The orientation of the carbon fibres does not matter at all, carbon weave structure is made to absorbs the forces in all lines/straights equally

That is absolute nonsense, especially for a technical forum.

He is right

a 90 degree change in orientation is almost negligible

but the most important thing is that you only see the external layer of carbon fiber; that give you no information about the number and the orientation of layers inside.

I doubt about the inside layer thing. That part is not so thick, it has max 2 layers, not more

[.poz]

I doubt about the inside layer thing. That part is not so thick, it has max 2 layers, not more
[/quote]

I'm not an expert but i trust what an expert in in composite materials (eng. Werner Quevedo) is saying about; sure i trust him more that those clickbait article you can read on some F1 web sites...


(it's in Italian)

[PhillipM]

He is right

a 90 degree change in orientation is almost negligible

but the most important thing is that you only see the external layer of carbon fiber; that give you no information about the number and the orientation of layers inside.

That depends entirely on layup. You could be a tenth of the stiffness at 90 vs 0* depending on the actual weave. Even the spread tow used for the top layer there is pretty similar at 0 and 90 but more elastic at 45* - it's not close to isotropic until you go to a triangular weave.

[gordonthegun]

[organic]

https://www.formu1a.uno/ferrari-il-nuov ... n-il-rake/

Ferrari used the updated bottom despite the wet because it would give something with higher car then useful now x TD and 2023.
F1-75 tomorrow will try to hint a setup + rake

The intentions of the technicians , coordinated by Enrico Cardile and David Sanchez, with this new fund is to allow the F1-75 to support some rake.

in Maranello they want to try to raise their heads, raising the rear of their car for next season

The idea is therefore to go back to using the F1-75 as it happened before the break, taking inspiration from Red Bull but maintaining solutions that adapt to their different concept. An Anglo-Austrian car that has now become the technical reference point also thanks to the exploitation of the rake, albeit much more contained than in past seasons.

[christian.falavena]

I doubt about the inside layer thing. That part is not so thick, it has max 2 layers, not more

I'm not an expert but i trust what an expert in in composite materials (eng. Werner Quevedo) is saying about; sure i trust him more that those clickbait article you can read on some F1 web sites...


(it's in Italian)
[/quote]
I cannot find any clickbait article about the F1 floor's carbon layers, but i know for sure due to my job that part is really not thick, no foam layer inside and not many carbon layers.
Do your own calculations

[FDD]

The orientation of the carbon fibres does not matter at all, carbon weave structure is made to absorbs the forces in all lines/straights equally

That is absolute nonsense, especially for a technical forum.

He is right

a 90 degree change in orientation is almost negligible

but the most important thing is that you only see the external layer of carbon fiber; that give you no information about the number and the orientation of layers inside.

I'll add some plus info also.
The difference between unidirectional and bidirectional carbon fiber structure (it is clearly visible that they use bidirectional):
Unidirectional carbon fiber in accordance with the standard refers to carbon fiber tows in one direction.
The bidirectional carbon fiber contains a large amount of twistless rovings in both the horizontal and vertical directions. It is woven in both warp and weft directions. The thickness is slightly thicker than that of the unidirectional carbon fiber.
Many of the carbon fiber are often unidirectional. Because it has good permeability, and it is more in line with common reinforcement projects, and the cost is relatively low.
The bidirectional carbon fiber cloth is more suitable for the reinforcement of structural cracks with IRREGULAR DIRECTIONS. Two-way carbon fiber can withstand the tension exerted by both sides, but because each carbon fiber filament is superimposed, it is more troublesome in the weaving process, and the price will naturally be much higher.
The thickness of a layer of carbon fiber cloth is only 0.111 mm / 0.167 mm (I think that there are even a tinnier layers but not sure), so it is very clear that they use more than one layer.
The only thing that they care about when do the cuting of the material is to use it in more economical way with as much as possible waste of it.
PS I also follow this two eng. from the video that you posted, they are excellent, especially since they work in car racing industry. I'l watch now this latest video, thank you.

[Andi76]

The orientation of the carbon fibres does not matter at all, carbon weave structure is made to absorbs the forces in all lines/straights equally

That is absolute nonsense, especially for a technical forum.

He is right

a 90 degree change in orientation is almost negligible

but the most important thing is that you only see the external layer of carbon fiber; that give you no information about the number and the orientation of layers inside.

No he is not right. Its utter rubbish. As its rubbish that a 90 degree change is negligible. Do you really think Ferrari would change it if it doesn't matter? Their whole layup process and their ply book? But anyway - back to his post -carbon fibre orientation matters very much! Often a balanced symmetrical layup through the thickness of a laminate is desireable as it doesn't warp during curing. Fibres should be placed to cater for the stresses on the component inner load, too. You also always have some aeroelasticity when it comes to a F1 Floor. And its all about carbon fibre orientation when you want the floor deflect in a different way(as may be the case with Ferraris new floor). So sorry- he is not right. He is totally wrong.

To finish this ridiculous discussion - i just talked to a former McLaren Engineer i know. He worked with John Barnard on the first Carbon Car, with Adrian Newey, Mike Elliot and others and there are only a few who know more about Carbon Fibre than him. His comment when i told him that someone just wanted to tell me that Carbon Fibre Orientation does not matter on a F1 Floor was, after making a joke, that this guy has never worked on a racing car and definetely never worked with Carbon Fibre and just has absolutely no clue what he is talking about....

The second post about unidirectional and bidirectional carbon fibre makes it totally obvious that he has read an article about carbon fibres. And not even a good one, but never laid his hands on carbon fibre or worked with it. The sentence:"The only thing that they care about when do the cuting of the material is to use it in more economical way with as much as possible waste of it." really takes the biscuit, as it not only not only shows any lack of understanding of how to work with carbon fibre, but also that he even lacks any common knowledge about Carbon Fibre in F1.

[mendis]

Translation: Since FP1, Ferrari has used the new bottom with the redesigned bulkhead (which pushes the dirty air outwards) and the tie rod that now hooks directly to the chute. Between FP1 and FP2 both drivers switched to a lighter wing configuration

[FDD]

That is absolute nonsense, especially for a technical forum.

He is right

a 90 degree change in orientation is almost negligible

but the most important thing is that you only see the external layer of carbon fiber; that give you no information about the number and the orientation of layers inside.

No he is not right. Its utter rubbish. As its rubbish that a 90 degree change is negligible. Do you really think Ferrari would change it if it doesn't matter? Their whole layup process and their ply book? But anyway - back to his post -carbon fibre orientation matters very much! Often a balanced symmetrical layup through the thickness of a laminate is desireable as it doesn't warp during curing. Fibres should be placed to cater for the stresses on the component inner load, too. You also always have some aeroelasticity when it comes to a F1 Floor. And its all about carbon fibre orientation when you want the floor deflect in a different way(as may be the case with Ferraris new floor). So sorry- he is not right. He is totally wrong.

To finish this ridiculous discussion - i just talked to Matthew Jeffries, a former McLaren Engineer i know. He worked with John Barnard on the first Carbon Car, with Adrian Newey, Mike Elliot and others and there are only a few who know more about Carbon Fibre than him. His comment when i told him that someone just wanted to tell me that Carbon Fibre Orientation does not matter on a F1 Floor was, after making a joke, that this guy has never worked on a racing car and definetely never worked with Carbon Fibre and just has absolutely no clue what he is talking about....

The second post about unidirectional and bidirectional carbon fibre makes it totally obvious that he has read an article about carbon fibres. And not even a good one, but never laid his hands on carbon fibre or worked with it. The sentence:"The only thing that they care about when do the cuting of the material is to use it in more economical way with as much as possible waste of it." really takes the biscuit, as it not only not only shows any lack of understanding of how to work with carbon fibre, but also that he even lacks any common knowledge about Carbon Fibre in F1.

"...that this guy has never worked on a racing car and definetely never worked with Carbon Fibre..."
True, but eng. Werner is working now on a racing cars with Carbon Fibre.
If he is wrong I am wrong too.

[WernerQuevedo]

Wow, I've noticed you're talking about my video.
Anyway, First of all, if you ask someone Expert in composite materials if "fiber orientation does matter", obviously Will answer affermatively and Will laugh of someone says the opposite.

But in this case, the only thing we can see Is that the First layer orientation has gone from 0/90° to 90/0°. This Is definitely a negligible difference, as usually the weave Is almost perfectly balanced.

Moreover, It Is not likely that, as said by someone, there are only two plies and no foam. There are probably more than 2 layers and a lot of UD tape, and 100% there Is Rohacell (a structural foam inside).
Just ti explain, I am a mechanical engineer and work as Composite Material Designer, so I know about carbon as much a pizzaiolo knows about pizza. Hope that my words did help!

[pierrre]

Wow, I've noticed you're talking about my video.
Anyway, First of all, if you ask someone Expert in composite materials if "fiber orientation does matter", obviously Will answer affermatively and Will laugh of someone says the opposite.

But in this case, the only thing we can see Is that the First layer orientation has gone from 0/90° to 90/0°. This Is definitely a negligible difference, as usually the weave Is almost perfectly balanced.

Moreover, It Is not likely that, as said by someone, there are only two plies and no foam. There are probably more than 2 layers and a lot of UD tape, and 100% there Is Rohacell (a structural foam inside).
Just ti explain, I am a mechanical engineer and work as Composite Material Designer, so I know about carbon as much a pizzaiolo knows about pizza. Hope that my words did help!

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