2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[CMSMJ1]

RB has a lot of baggage and the Mercedes (mainly - judged from the comments in the thread) fanbase will want them to be defenestrated, tarred and feathered for this. Maybe even put in the stocks over a cold winter evening... It should not matter, should it, but it does?

I don't see it that way, if someone cheated/broke the rules (intentionally or unintentionally) and gets caught, they should face the consequences for doing so! It doesn't matter if its a kid playing Tee-ball, a high school football team, or a billion dollar company.

I think we agree - I imagine that in a world where team A and team B were both equally at fault - then it should not matter who these A or B teams are for the correct punishments to be meted out. I imagine that it will matter though - and it should not.

I am saying that in spite of who RB are they should be punished accordingly - not more so becuase the Merc (or others) want that, or not less, as RB fans can't see what the issue is (that it was catering, or Newey's contract etc)

The rules were clear enough that the other teams managed to abide by them (AM and Williams acknowledging their errors)

The judgement process needs to be extremely clear - as this will also set precedent for any future transgressions..so will FIA go heavy to give encouragement to the others to comply in future??

I'm interested to read it all when it is released

[SuperCNJ]

RB has a lot of baggage and the Mercedes (mainly - judged from the comments in the thread) fanbase will want them to be defenestrated, tarred and feathered for this. Maybe even put in the stocks over a cold winter evening... It should not matter, should it, but it does?

I don't see it that way, if someone cheated/broke the rules (intentionally or unintentionally) and gets caught, they should face the consequences for doing so! It doesn't matter if its a kid playing Tee-ball, a high school football team, or a billion dollar company.

Agreed. And it's not just unfair to Merc, they are not the only stakeholders here, it is unfair to all the other teams on the grid who complied with the rules.

[djones]

I struggle to see how anyone can justify anything but a very harsh penalty.

Forget Mercedes, it's cheating all teams and all fans. It is no different to running a 1650cc engine while everybody else sticks to the 1600cc limit.

[Big Tea]

As it happens this year, no one else was close enough to challenge, except Ferrari who self destructed, which is not RBR's fault, but what happens today affects what will happen in the foreseeable future.
There could be a time where two or more teams are within a handful of points, and looking back at this judgement would affect if the push the limit or not.

Ah, we get fined 5 million, no Biggy, get that new development through v Hmm, too risky.

[djones]

As it happens this year, no one else was close enough to challenge, except Ferrari who self destructed, which is not RBR's fault, but what happens today affects what will happen in the foreseeable future.
There could be a time where two or more teams are within a handful of points, and looking back at this judgement would affect if the push the limit or not.

Ah, we get fined 5 million, no Biggy, get that new development through v Hmm, too risky.

True.

But you have to agree in 2021 (what this mainly relates to) even 1m would have been enough to sway it?

[Wil992]

For my money, the "Newey is/isn't an employee" speculation is a red herring.

Here, from the FIA regs
(https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... iss.12.pdf)

"3. EXCLUSIONS
3.1 In calculating Relevant Costs, the following costs and amounts within Total Costs of the
Reporting Group must be excluded ("Excluded Costs"):
...
(d) All costs of Consideration provided to the three individuals (other than any individual
in respect of whom all costs of Consideration are excluded pursuant to any other subArticle of this Article 3.1) in respect of whom the highest aggregate amount of
Consideration has been recognised in Total Costs of the Reporting Group during the
Reporting Period (the "Excluded Persons"), or to a Connected Party of any Excluded
Person, in each case in exchange for that Excluded Person providing services to or for
the benefit of the F1 Team, together with associated employer’s social security
contributions and all travel and accommodation costs in respect of each Excluded
Person"

So, it's clear cut, the top 3 highest earners are excluded, including any "connected parties" to those 3 individuals.

From the definitions section of that same doc.

"Connected Party" means, in relation to a Relevant Person:
(a) any family member of such Relevant Person, where family member means:
(i) a spouse, domestic partner or civil partner;
(ii) any other person with whom the Relevant Person lives as partner in an
enduring family relationship;
(iii) children or step-children of the Relevant Person or of any person falling within
paragraph (a)(i) of this definition;
(iv) any children or step-children of a person falling within paragraph (a)(ii) of this
definition who live with the Relevant Person and have not attained the age of
18;
(v) siblings;
(vi) parents; and
(vii) dependants of the Relevant Person or of any person falling within paragraph
(a)(i) of this definition;
(b) any agent or representative acting on behalf of the Relevant Person;
(c) any body corporate in relation to which a Relevant Person or any of the categories of
person identified within paragraphs (a) and (b) of this definition is:
(i) beneficially entitled to 20% or more of the entire issued share capital of that
body corporate; or
(ii) entitled to exercise or control the exercise of more than 20% of the voting
power at any general meeting of that body corporate; and
(d) any company, trust, partnership, or other body, organisation or mechanism
established or operating directly or indirectly in whole or in part for the benefit of or
in respect of the Relevant Person or any or all of the other categories of person
referred to in this definition."

So, with the above in mind, how would it be possible for the FIA to argue that newey's company is not one of the top earners and therefore excluded? It's in back and white, his company is a connected party and him and any connected party can be added to the excluded list.

[Just_a_fan]

For my money, the "Newey is/isn't an employee" speculation is a red herring.

Here, from the FIA regs
(https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... iss.12.pdf)

together with associated employer’s social security
contributions

Because Newey isn't an employee and this rule appears to relate only to employees. Thus Newey's company can't be a connected party because Newey can't be an excluded person.

[Big Tea]

As it happens this year, no one else was close enough to challenge, except Ferrari who self destructed, which is not RBR's fault, but what happens today affects what will happen in the foreseeable future.
There could be a time where two or more teams are within a handful of points, and looking back at this judgement would affect if the push the limit or not.

Ah, we get fined 5 million, no Biggy, get that new development through v Hmm, too risky.

True.

But you have to agree in 2021 (what this mainly relates to) even 1m would have been enough to sway it?

They had no guide then though other than try it and see, so IF they tried it, cant blame them. If the punishment is poultry, cant blame whoever does it next, but if the punishment is harsh (even if it is suspended as it is a 'first) it will dissuade others.

[dans79]

I think we agree - I imagine that in a world where team A and team B were both equally at fault - then it should not matter who these A or B teams are for the correct punishments to be meted out. I imagine that it will matter though - and it should not.

I am saying that in spite of who RB are they should be punished accordingly - not more so becuase the Merc (or others) want that, or not less, as RB fans can't see what the issue is (that it was catering, or Newey's contract etc)

IMO, the bigger and ongoing issue here is with the FIA, & liberty (and Bernie before them). They are so worried about the "optics", their reputation, and the revenue stream, that they haven't properly run the sports in at least a good 15 to 20 years, and some would probably say 30 or 40 years!

Imo, they base far to much of their decisions on how any given situation might affect the outcome of the race or the championship!

[Wil992]

(d) All costs of Consideration provided to the three individuals (other than any individual
in respect of whom all costs of Consideration are excluded pursuant to any other subArticle of this Article 3.1) in respect of whom the highest aggregate amount of
Consideration has been recognised in Total Costs of the Reporting Group during the
Reporting Period (the "Excluded Persons"), or to a Connected Party of any Excluded
Person, in each case in exchange for that Excluded Person providing services to or for
the benefit of the F1 Team, together with associated employer’s social security
contributions and all travel and accommodation costs in respect of each Excluded
Person"

The word employee doesn't appear in this paragraph. Is says an individual or a connected party providing services. Their employment status is irrelevant.

If the FIA are saying there is a breach on these grounds i'm honestly not surprised RB are adamant they're right.

[dans79]

(d) All costs of Consideration provided to the three individuals (other than any individual
in respect of whom all costs of Consideration are excluded pursuant to any other subArticle of this Article 3.1) in respect of whom the highest aggregate amount of
Consideration has been recognised in Total Costs of the Reporting Group during the
Reporting Period (the "Excluded Persons"), or to a Connected Party of any Excluded
Person, in each case in exchange for that Excluded Person providing services to or for
the benefit of the F1 Team, together with associated employer’s social security
contributions and all travel and accommodation costs in respect of each Excluded
Person"

The word employee doesn't appear in this paragraph. Is says an individual or a connected party providing services. Their employment status is irrelevant.

If the FIA are saying there is a breach on these grounds i'm honestly not surprised RB are adamant they're right.

I think it depends if he is considered an employee, a connected party, or something else. for example do we know if his "company" has any employees besides him?

In all honesty, I'm not even sure if it's worth debating about Newey, as we don't know if he is the sticking point or not.

[Hammerfist]

I find that highly unlikely and laughable, as that would mean huge amours of performance were left on the table!

If it was me a lot of heads would role if that much performance was left untapped!

Indeed. If we go back and examine some facts its just so unlikely they under spent.

-They brought more upgrades than any other team in 2021.
-They are still updating the car more tgan others in 2022.
-Horner has been pretty vocal this year in expressing his displeasure with the current cost cap and is effectively lobbying to have it increased.

So there is no way in hell they are spending less than other teams. Indeed a truly laughable take.

Also not including neweys salary and trying to say he had nothing to do with the car is nonsensical. The rb18 is widely seen as a newey creation. If rbr really tried to make it seem that he had nothing to do with the performance of the car then that was a dumb decision. But i dont necessarily believe that is tge case and its likely just wild speculation at this point. We need to hear the official truth.

The post sums up the view of how to passionately dislike a team. Bringing more upgrades doesn't necessarily mean spending more.
They are still upgrading probably because they didn't destroy their chassis and engines like other runners did?
There is more truth to it than just, "my feeling".
About Newey's part, that whole piece there is competely wrong. It shows you didn't really read what is the issue here.

Come on man.

Engines arent part of the cost cap.

Rbr bringing more upgrades got the attention of binotto way before this fiasco started and hamilton also mentioned that they didnt understand how rbr was able to upgrade so much in 2021.

Nothing i said regarding newey is just a “ feeling”. It is just simple fact the rb18 is a Newey influenced car. It will go down in history as such. Period.

If Neweys salary can be exempted then all teams can exempt whoever they like; as long as theyre “in the top 3 highest earners”, whoever is mainly responsible for the cars design for example. You dont see anything wrong with that? Really? Don’t you understand that if Adrian Newey moves to Ferrari or Mercedes the balance of power will most likely shift to wherever he goes?

[Marco.rova]

As it happens this year, no one else was close enough to challenge, except Ferrari who self destructed, which is not RBR's fault, but what happens today affects what will happen in the foreseeable future.
There could be a time where two or more teams are within a handful of points, and looking back at this judgement would affect if the push the limit or not.

Ah, we get fined 5 million, no Biggy, get that new development through v Hmm, too risky.

Sure, but maybe Ferrari in order to be close enough needs to push up to 110% making errors while for RBR is enough been 95% with no risks..... are you sure that going over the budget cap didn't give to RBR that GAP to race safe while the others have to stress more???

RBR cheated, and won by cheating, that's a fact

[DChemTech]

As it happens this year, no one else was close enough to challenge, except Ferrari who self destructed, which is not RBR's fault, but what happens today affects what will happen in the foreseeable future.
There could be a time where two or more teams are within a handful of points, and looking back at this judgement would affect if the push the limit or not.

Ah, we get fined 5 million, no Biggy, get that new development through v Hmm, too risky.

Sure, but maybe Ferrari in order to be close enough needs to push up to 110% making errors while for RBR is enough been 95% with no risks..... are you sure that going over the budget cap didn't give to RBR that GAP to race safe while the others have to stress more???

RBR cheated, and won by cheating, that's a fact

If you have knowledge that we do not have, please do share those facts.
Otherwise the only thing that we know is that the FIA has judged RB breached the cap, but lacking details as to why they judged that, it's not a fact that they cheated.

[Hoffman900]

As it happens this year, no one else was close enough to challenge, except Ferrari who self destructed, which is not RBR's fault, but what happens today affects what will happen in the foreseeable future.
There could be a time where two or more teams are within a handful of points, and looking back at this judgement would affect if the push the limit or not.

Ah, we get fined 5 million, no Biggy, get that new development through v Hmm, too risky.

Sure, but maybe Ferrari in order to be close enough needs to push up to 110% making errors while for RBR is enough been 95% with no risks..... are you sure that going over the budget cap didn't give to RBR that GAP to race safe while the others have to stress more???

RBR cheated, and won by cheating, that's a fact

If you have knowledge that we do not have, please do share those facts.
Otherwise the only thing that we know is that the FIA has judged RB breached the cap, but lacking details as to why they judged that, it's not a fact that they cheated.

Breaching the cap is cheating. This is binary. The point of a cap is to put a ceiling on spending. 9 teams did it and it's very stinky when the team that won the last two WDC's, and whom people have been making noise about bringing lots of updates for two years now, is the one over the CAP.

I didn't know F1Technical was hosting the 2022 Olympic Mental Gymnastic games this year.