2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[mwillems]

No. One is crossing the line by following the rules, the other is crossing the line and saying 'Prove it'

Yes but you need to be clear, one is a legal line and the other is a moral line that can belong to one or more people.

The crossing of those two lines are incomparable as I'm sure that some might think that tax avoidance is a healthy process and that existing tax rates have been built to include a certain percentage that will cover avoidance losses and that a certain amount of "Push and pull" are built into the system.

A legal line though is infinitely less subjective and is very wrong in the eyes of the tax enforcement folks and anyones moral opinion can go out of the window, as it's not really worth anything.

I think you have probably nailed it here. How badly do you want to win, and what is 'sporting'?

Some will blur the line, is that smart or crooked?

I don't think crooked has anything to do with it. You can underpay tax through stupidity but the rules be totally clear. it's just a matter of being in the rules or out.

RB were out and the intent (or lack of) doesn't alter the need to remove their potential advantage and demonstrate a deterrent, for me if intent can be proved it should then justify a further punishment on top of removing any potential advantage.

[Big Tea]

You aren't describing people cutting it as close as possible, you are describing 2 sets of people, one using legal methods and one using illegal methods and it does not matter a jot who you support in that instance, you broke the rules.

For me the consequences of this are too big to be written off by saying they were just pushed a little too hard.

I have to agree, despite all I have said, a line is a line no matter how blurred it is. But, there will always be arguments of does the line start on the left hand side or the right hand side (track limits).

I think it is time for me to step back and watch others sort it out I used to be indecisive, but now I am not so sure. I also seem to have wandered out of my depth

[mwillems]

You aren't describing people cutting it as close as possible, you are describing 2 sets of people, one using legal methods and one using illegal methods and it does not matter a jot who you support in that instance, you broke the rules.

For me the consequences of this are too big to be written off by saying they were just pushed a little too hard.

I have to agree, despite all I have said, a line is a line no matter how blurred it is. But, there will always be arguments of does the line start on the left hand side or the right hand side (track limits).

I think it is time for me to step back and watch others sort it out I used to be indecisive, but now I am not so sure. I also seem to have wandered out of my depth

I shake your hand good sir, I enjoyed the chat. To be honest I was quite indecisive before this evening in terms of where I stood for punishment, or at least how a judgement could be justified, but feel like I have a defensible opinion now and not just relying on my own gut instinct or bias.

Edit: Or Madam!

[Just_a_fan]

No. One is crossing the line by following the rules, the other is crossing the line and saying 'Prove it'

If you follow the rules then you're not crossing the line.

Is that not the whole gist of it? Everyone is going to cut it as close as possible, one seems closer than the other 9.
Is this that the one is over zealous, or the other 9 are not really trying hard enough?

I suppose it depends on who you support

I'm not sure it's a fan thing. It isn't for me. It's a simple matter of principle that breaching the cost cap is a very bad thing, because it potentially gives an advantage that can't be countered except by likewise overspending.

It's not that 9 teams didn't try hard enough. For all we know they all talked to the FIA and all got right up to the cap limit (except the inherently financially poor teams, of course) and not a cent over. One team appears to have assumed their interpretation was correct and didn't check.

I think it's telling that Horner has been trying to get the cap raised for some months now, with hyperbole about half the grid failing to finish the season, etc. That sounds to me like a man trying to cover for something. And now we know what it is. It makes me think that they have known this issue was coming and, unfortunately for them, they have used the same trick this year and fear they're going to fall foul again when this process occurs at the end of 2022.

Interesting times, eh?

[Big Tea]

You aren't describing people cutting it as close as possible, you are describing 2 sets of people, one using legal methods and one using illegal methods and it does not matter a jot who you support in that instance, you broke the rules.

For me the consequences of this are too big to be written off by saying they were just pushed a little too hard.

I have to agree, despite all I have said, a line is a line no matter how blurred it is. But, there will always be arguments of does the line start on the left hand side or the right hand side (track limits).

I think it is time for me to step back and watch others sort it out I used to be indecisive, but now I am not so sure. I also seem to have wandered out of my depth

I shake your hand good sir, I enjoyed the chat. To be honest I was quite indecisive before this evening in terms of where I stood for punishment, or at least how a judgement could be justified, but feel like I have a defensible opinion now and not just relying on my own gut instinct or bias.

Edit: Or Madam!

Defiantly sir, even if all the bits don't work so good, I had them I find myself optioned but flexible, mostly because I can not recall what I was thinking five seconds ago

[mwillems]

I have to agree, despite all I have said, a line is a line no matter how blurred it is. But, there will always be arguments of does the line start on the left hand side or the right hand side (track limits).

I think it is time for me to step back and watch others sort it out I used to be indecisive, but now I am not so sure. I also seem to have wandered out of my depth

I shake your hand good sir, I enjoyed the chat. To be honest I was quite indecisive before this evening in terms of where I stood for punishment, or at least how a judgement could be justified, but feel like I have a defensible opinion now and not just relying on my own gut instinct or bias.

Edit: Or Madam!

Defiantly sir, even if all the bits don't work so good, I had them I find myself optioned but flexible, mostly because I can not recall what I was thinking five seconds ago

Wasn't that exactly what the Red Bull finance team said?



It probably wasn't that funny but I laughed heartily lol

[Zynerji]

As if no one could possibly forsee problems in F1 with rule interpretation and loopholes...

[Big Tea]

I shake your hand good sir, I enjoyed the chat. To be honest I was quite indecisive before this evening in terms of where I stood for punishment, or at least how a judgement could be justified, but feel like I have a defensible opinion now and not just relying on my own gut instinct or bias.

Edit: Or Madam!

Defiantly sir, even if all the bits don't work so good, I had them I find myself optioned but flexible, mostly because I can not recall what I was thinking five seconds ago

Wasn't that exactly what the Red Bull finance team said?



It probably wasn't that funny but I laughed heartily lol

[mwillems]

As if no one could possibly forsee problems in F1 with rule interpretation and loopholes...

The teams are calling for transparency but of course when the teams agreed the rules no one asked for transparency, just in case it was their accounts released!

Of course after the event when you know the finger isn't pointed at you it is easy to cry foul and call for judgement from the heavens, lightning to strike Helmut Marko and for Buddha to fart on Christian Horner.

The politics are to be expected, the real problem is the FIA play it more than anyone but they are the governance body. The biggest problem for me is that you can't trust the FIA.

It's not hard to think RB could overspend and get away with it by predicting the FIAs own need to not go back over last years drama.

It would also not surprise me if the FIA had worked to make RBs overspend less serious, and that is based on leaks and my own distrust and no facts whatsoever.

[ringo]

A lot of effort was placed in this thread to classify Newey and others. But it doesnt matter what he is classified, employee or contractor through his company.
The spend was recorded and Newey's services durirectly relate to developing the F1 car.

So if he is on staff and gets 3 mil to do aero work.. but his company is getting 10 mil for chassis work.. it doesnt matter, that's 13 million spent towards the car. And it wont be "off book".
If that 10 mil was off book and "racing services" donated free manhours to development ( but behind the scenes a sponsor paid 10 mil to newey company) ... then that will raise a red flag. And its still cheating. Redbull cannot juggle that and reclassify and then be okay.

The car, the cad files, the manufacturing hours run, the contractor invoices and purchase orders, their pay roll even if its from a red bull sponsor, the update parts, are their own evidence that 152 million was spent. Redbull just met their match in terms of the calibre of auditor that the FIA hired.

The funny thing is.. i suspect Redbull had a majof breach and the FIA turned it into minor so as to try and save Max's title.
The orange army will be livid and leave the sport if F1 loses all those millions of dutch viewers.
But then again.. maybe they will support Max evrn harder next year if they feel wronged.
Another view is the fanbase blaming Redbull for poorly managing Max's career with that budget blunder.
Interesting and critical times ahead!

[langedweil]

That was quite the read to catch up ..
I wonder if FIA and the teams all read along to maybe obtain some new insights, cherrypicking from the vast amount of accusations and solution directions

Being quite indifferent myself, I can only see a lot of stains on the sports lately that will hurt over the longrun. And they are not just about this specific matter; a lot was inadequate for a long time now.
God, I really do miss the 80's ..

[ringo]

I think its a stain if the FIA doesnt do sonething.
If they do the sport cannot be stained for a participants actions. It's like ferrari and their cheat engine. F1 is not stained for punishing them. The FIA cannot control the actions of the teams. So i dont think a team can damage the image of the sport. Only if that team's influence warps of twists the prescribed actions.

The FIA has clear options in dealing with the breach as listed in their regs. They run the risk of being stained if they sweep it under the rug or create a new penalty that downplays the breach.
Toto will stick on this case however. He let the FIA slide last year by not appealing the outcome, i dont think he will shoe mercy a second time for the second time he lost out the sport.

[selvam_e2002]

A lot of effort was placed in this thread to classify Newey and others. But it doesnt matter what he is classified, employee or contractor through his company.
The spend was recorded and Newey's services durirectly relate to developing the F1 car.

So if he is on staff and gets 3 mil to do aero work.. but his company is getting 10 mil for chassis work.. it doesnt matter, that's 13 million spent towards the car. And it wont be "off book".
If that 10 mil was off book and "racing services" donated free manhours to development ( but behind the scenes a sponsor paid 10 mil to newey company) ... then that will raise a red flag. And its still cheating. Redbull cannot juggle that and reclassify and then be okay.

The car, the cad files, the manufacturing hours run, the contractor invoices and purchase orders, their pay roll even if its from a red bull sponsor, the update parts, are their own evidence that 152 million was spent. Redbull just met their match in terms of the calibre of auditor that the FIA hired.

The funny thing is.. i suspect Redbull had a majof breach and the FIA turned it into minor so as to try and save Max's title.
The orange army will be livid and leave the sport if F1 loses all those millions of dutch viewers.
But then again.. maybe they will support Max evrn harder next year if they feel wronged.
Another view is the fanbase blaming Redbull for poorly managing Max's career with that budget blunder.
Interesting and critical times ahead!

Well said. but fan base will come and go but F1 is not. I would say, RB setting bad example to sport. As a drink company they don't value the motor sport. All they need customers to drink RB. So they can go any extreme level.

Better to have rule to have only Car manufactures in F1 to make sport more inline with what they do.

[bluechris]

I think its a stain if the FIA doesnt do sonething.
If they do the sport cannot be stained for a participants actions. It's like ferrari and their cheat engine. F1 is not stained for punishing them. The FIA cannot control the actions of the teams. So i dont think a team can damage the image of the sport. Only if that team's influence warps of twists the prescribed actions.

The FIA has clear options in dealing with the breach as listed in their regs. They run the risk of being stained if they sweep it under the rug or create a new penalty that downplays the breach.
Toto will stick on this case however. He let the FIA slide last year by not appealing the outcome, i dont think he will shoe mercy a second time for the second time he lost out the sport.

This is correct as matter Ferrari but we saw that there was a punishement at least for them on the following years. We will see the same now?

[DChemTech]

The funny thing is.. i suspect Redbull had a majof breach and the FIA turned it into minor so as to try and save Max's title.
The orange army will be livid and leave the sport if F1 loses all those millions of dutch viewers.
But then again.. maybe they will support Max evrn harder next year if they feel wronged.
Another view is the fanbase blaming Redbull for poorly managing Max's career with that budget blunder.
Interesting and critical times ahead!

Ah, of course, immediate baseless insinuations of conspiracy and that it must be the red bull fans. And then some say the RB fans are such a rabid fanbase