2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[Wouter]

The thing is, we do see patterns emerge and statements made which cannot be retracted.
For example, when journalists noted Red Bulls successive upgrade packages arriving at each race weekend.

As per Binotto/Wolff etc it was noted that RB had a stream of updates on their car and other teams were scratching their heads as to how this was achievable.

So why was Red Bull so much more efficient than any other team last year, producing updates ad nauseaum,
and this year we find they breached the budget cap?

That reeks.

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So RBR has upgrade packages to the car every weekend?
And they were "producing updates ad nauseaum."?
Could you show me from each weekend the upgrades? I can't find them. Thankx.

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I've provided you with the motorsport links.

If you wish to dispute my post, by all means find a link to dispute the motorsport story with links to all the upgrades RB brought last season.

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So you are posting Motorsport claims here without checking if they are correct at all!
The FIA documents show that RBR did not bring upgrades very often at all. Only the usual modifications belonging to a circuit, which every team did.
But those FIA facts are obviously not correct in your opinion. The Motorsport site is more reliable !!

[chrisc90]

They are up for debate, until the matter is fully closed!

The FIA verdict is clear. They are guilty.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63204082

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 ... ap-the-fia

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/34 ... budget-cap

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... ing-rules

For your benefit.

So for the good of the thread, can you accept the FIA have found Red Bull guilty?

What if RB prove the FIA have missed something? That’s why there is a appeals procedure and they currently in discussions.

[mendis]

They are up for debate, until the matter is fully closed!

The FIA verdict is clear. They are guilty.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63204082

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 ... ap-the-fia

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/34 ... budget-cap

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... ing-rules

For your benefit.

So for the good of the thread, can you accept the FIA have found Red Bull guilty?

No doubt FIA has found a breach. No doubt the matter is still open for appeal. That is the ground for debating the FIA findings, more so because there are no details and the Red Bull is holding their stand about their side of the truth. Judicial systems all across the world allows parties to appeal the findings and so does FIA process. Until Red Bull loses the appeal or FIA loses their version of the truth, it's up for debate.

[Just_a_fan]

They are up for debate, until the matter is fully closed!

The FIA verdict is clear. They are guilty.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63204082

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 ... ap-the-fia

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/34 ... budget-cap

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... ing-rules

For your benefit.

So for the good of the thread, can you accept the FIA have found Red Bull guilty?

No doubt FIA has found a breach. No doubt the matter is still open for appeal. That is the ground for debating the FIA findings, more so because there are no details and the Red Bull is holding their stand about their side of the truth. Judicial systems all across the world allows parties to appeal the findings and so does FIA process. Until Red Bull loses the appeal or FIA loses their version of the truth, it's up for debate.

If you go down the appeal route in judicial systems, you are still guilty until and unless the appeal is upheld. That's rather what it means. Found guilty. Appeal. You can't appeal until a verdict has been issued. The appeal stays the hand of the executioner so you can't be punished until the appeal has been heard.

[mendis]

The FIA verdict is clear. They are guilty.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63204082

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 ... ap-the-fia

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/34 ... budget-cap

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... ing-rules

For your benefit.

So for the good of the thread, can you accept the FIA have found Red Bull guilty?

No doubt FIA has found a breach. No doubt the matter is still open for appeal. That is the ground for debating the FIA findings, more so because there are no details and the Red Bull is holding their stand about their side of the truth. Judicial systems all across the world allows parties to appeal the findings and so does FIA process. Until Red Bull loses the appeal or FIA loses their version of the truth, it's up for debate.

If you go down the appeal route in judicial systems, you are still guilty until and unless the appeal is upheld. That's rather what it means. Found guilty. Appeal. You can't appeal until a verdict has been issued. The appeal stays the hand of the executioner so you can't be punished until the appeal has been heard.

For so long as the appeal process is pending and the "guilty" party has the right to appeal, the FIA findings are up for debate. If Red Bull drops the appeal or loses the appeal, then there is nothing to debate. Until then, it's up for debate.

[Quantum]

So you are posting Motorsport claims here without checking if they are correct at all!
The FIA documents show that RBR did not bring upgrades very often at all. Only the usual modifications belonging to a circuit, which every team did.
But those FIA facts are obviously not correct in your opinion. The Motorsport site is more reliable !!

Can you cite the source from the FIA please?

[Quantum]

For so long as the appeal process is pending and the "guilty" party has the right to appeal, the FIA findings are up for debate. If Red Bull drops the appeal or loses the appeal, then there is nothing to debate. Until then, it's up for debate.

The verdict is guilty. Can you at the very least just accept that basic reality?
Appeals processes are attempts to overcome the said fact.

So for purposes of moving the discussion forward from this very basic point, you can speculate why Red Bull would win an appeal. Because you have nothing to prove otherwise from the fact the FIA have found them guilty.

[Sieper]

Plus, FIA have already said all teams cooperated and acted in good faith. The mere suggestion of malice is out of place.

And yet suggestions of malice are thrown against drivers for "taking Max out", when it's obviously not done on purpose.

Red Bull have deliberately structured their affairs to maximise budget available for the car. That's a given. All teams will have done it. Red Bull appear to have got it wrong.

What goes on in peoples head can never be proven. I have a pretty clear idea about some moments of last years but I can I prove it. Not likely. But if you want to argue against FIA’s arguing, that is fine, it is what this topic is for.

[rijtuig]

Any reason why RBR is not doing any further upgrades this year?

Can they take the remaining budget from this year to the 2023 season?

[Wouter]

So you are posting Motorsport claims here without checking if they are correct at all!
The FIA documents show that RBR did not bring upgrades very often at all. Only the usual modifications belonging to a circuit, which every team did.
But those FIA facts are obviously not correct in your opinion. The Motorsport site is more reliable !!

.
Can you cite the source from the FIA please?

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From every race weekend?? It seems to me that you can find those yourself.
Prior to each race weekend, each team's updates are announced.
Look on the FIA site at the Race Calendar and then at the Official Documents.

If that is too much trouble for you .... Albert Fabrega also puts those updates every GP weekend on his Twitter Account.

[mendis]

For so long as the appeal process is pending and the "guilty" party has the right to appeal, the FIA findings are up for debate. If Red Bull drops the appeal or loses the appeal, then there is nothing to debate. Until then, it's up for debate.

The verdict is guilty. Can you at the very least just accept that basic reality?
Appeals processes are attempts to overcome the said fact.

So for purposes of moving the discussion forward from this very basic point, you can speculate why Red Bull would win an appeal. Because you have nothing to prove otherwise from the fact the FIA have found them guilty.

For so long as there is an appeal pending, nothing is final and hence, FIA findings that have found a breach that Red Bull has denied, are debatable. There is a reason why there is a process and that is still due.

[DChemTech]

They are up for debate, until the matter is fully closed!

The FIA verdict is clear. They are guilty.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63204082

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 ... ap-the-fia

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/34 ... budget-cap

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... ing-rules

For your benefit.

So for the good of the thread, can you accept the FIA have found Red Bull guilty?

For the good of the thread, it would be good if both sides accept that this is not yet a clear cut situation, with the current information that we have - the thread is called rumours and speculations after all, so it would be good if we all acknowledge that that's what it is - which also means giving eachother some leeway; it's all opinions, after all, and while it can certainly be discussed how certain things are legally interpreted in certain countries, it is not definitively clear how the FIA interprets things.

So, yes, RB 'acolytes' should accept that the FIA has noted a breach of the budget cap according to their interpretation of the regulations, and have not certified the budget as such. That is a fact. That, indeed, also means that RBR is guilty of a breach of the regulations, as judged by the FIA.

That does not mean that RBR breached this cap deliberately, also it does not mean RBR is acting maliciously, and it does not mean RBR is cheating. It might be doing all these things, but that is impossible to claim based on the information that has been provided thus far and it would be good if the MB 'acolytes' equally acknowledge that. What is clear is that there is a disagreement between the FIA and RBR about what is included in the budget cap, and it would be really nice to know what that disagreement is so that we can judge what the exact issue is, but for the time being we can only speculate.

Furthermore, we do not know the magnitude of the breach. So any claims of RBR overspending millions are speculation. Sure, one can bring up valid reasons as to why it would more likely be millions than hundreds, but in the end, it is speculation still. What we do know is that it is less than 5%; claims that did come by that 'it was likely a major breach but covered up by the FIA' are based on absolutely nothing (and in my view slanderous). We also do not know what the punishment will be, and since we know neither the magnitude of the breach nor the origin (and the degree of malice/intent), it is impossible to judge the fairness of said penalty - despite many people trying to do so already. It would be great if, for the good of the thread, if those things can be acknowledged.

[Quantum]

So you are posting Motorsport claims here without checking if they are correct at all!
The FIA documents show that RBR did not bring upgrades very often at all. Only the usual modifications belonging to a circuit, which every team did.
But those FIA facts are obviously not correct in your opinion. The Motorsport site is more reliable !!

.
Can you cite the source from the FIA please?

.
From every race weekend?? It seems to me that you can find those yourself.
Prior to each race weekend, each team's updates are announced.
Look on the FIA site at the Race Calendar and then at the Official Documents.

If that is too much trouble for you .... Albert Fabrega also puts those updates every GP weekend on his Twitter Account.

I can't find an official link.

Can you provide a link for me, as I kindly did for you? Thanks in advance.

[Quantum]

For so long as there is an appeal pending, nothing is final and hence, FIA findings that have found a breach that Red Bull has denied, are debatable. There is a reason why there is a process and that is still due.

So it's debatable that the FIA have found RB guilty?

[mendis]

For so long as there is an appeal pending, nothing is final and hence, FIA findings that have found a breach that Red Bull has denied, are debatable. There is a reason why there is a process and that is still due.

So it's debatable that the FIA have found RB guilty?

It's debatable for as long as the process of findings, appeals and a verdict isn't final. Can we move on or are we going to be in this loop?