2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[mendis]

It's the PR equivalent of a villain shouting "it weren't me, guv!" as the police feel his collar.

It's individual perspective. I am fine with it. Like I said, there is law to establish if someone is a "Villain". Police holding the collar doesn't make one a "Villain".

Having a bag of swag in his hand makes the villain's case somewhat less watertight than he might like.

Evidence of crime need to established in front of law than the outfit and accessories of an individual to be considered a crime.

[101FlyingDutchman]

“On the other hand, there have most certainly been hard-worded allegations of cheating, malice and all that; basically these take the slippery slope that "Since RBR was found to breach the cost cap and found guilty by the FIA (true, but open to appeal), it must be intentional and malicious and they were cheating (not necessarily true) and it definitely impacted the season outcome (not necessarily true) and hence the penalty is much too low (we don't even know what the penalty will be). Now it's all fine to speculate, but an acknowledgement of the uncertainty is in place - as is an acknowledgement that guilt does not immediately equal malice or cheating.”

What a fine précis of the situation. All the supposition and posturing is based on incomplete information. Trying to stay impartial until the facts are truly known. Certainly wrt any penalty that may or may not be given. On balance, I lean on the “coming down hard side if rules are breached”. But at the moment that judgment cannot be made

[Just_a_fan]

It's individual perspective. I am fine with it. Like I said, there is law to establish if someone is a "Villain". Police holding the collar doesn't make one a "Villain".

Having a bag of swag in his hand makes the villain's case somewhat less watertight than he might like.

Evidence of crime need to established in front of law than the outfit and accessories of an individual to be considered a crime.

The FIA has established that the crime has occurred. The defendant is now attempting to get the verdict overturned.

The FIA Cost Cap Administration has issued certificates of compliance to seven of the ten Competitors:

Aston Martin Aramco Cognizant Formula One Team is considered to be in Procedural Breach of the Financial Regulations;
Oracle Red Bull Racing is considered to be in Procedural and Minor Overspend Breaches of the Financial Regulations; and
Williams Racing has complied with the Financial Regulations in respect of the 2021 Reporting Period with the exception of a previous Procedural Breach in regard to which the Cost Cap Administration entered into an ABA with Williams in May 2022. This Procedural Breach was then remediated by Williams in a timely, cooperative and transparent manner.

https://www.fia.com/news/fia-completes- ... egulations

There is no "they aren't guilty yet". The FIA has announced them guilty. If they wish to appeal they may do so. If they win their appeal then they may be cleared either totally or in part. But until they win an appeal, they are guilty.

[mendis]

Having a bag of swag in his hand makes the villain's case somewhat less watertight than he might like.

Evidence of crime need to established in front of law than the outfit and accessories of an individual to be considered a crime.

The FIA has established that the crime has occurred. The defendant is now attempting to get the verdict overturned.

The FIA Cost Cap Administration has issued certificates of compliance to seven of the ten Competitors:

Aston Martin Aramco Cognizant Formula One Team is considered to be in Procedural Breach of the Financial Regulations;
Oracle Red Bull Racing is considered to be in Procedural and Minor Overspend Breaches of the Financial Regulations; and
Williams Racing has complied with the Financial Regulations in respect of the 2021 Reporting Period with the exception of a previous Procedural Breach in regard to which the Cost Cap Administration entered into an ABA with Williams in May 2022. This Procedural Breach was then remediated by Williams in a timely, cooperative and transparent manner.

https://www.fia.com/news/fia-completes- ... egulations

There is no "they aren't guilty yet". The FIA has announced them guilty. If they wish to appeal they may do so. If they win their appeal then they may be cleared either totally or in part. But until they win an appeal, they are guilty.

You made your point, exactly the same one the other poster did and I gave my opinion on it, repeatedly. Feel free to continue as I can't repeat myself and pollute the thread. I respect your opinion though. Thanks.

[dans79]

Another potential sticking point!

2.10 In the calculation of Relevant Costs, the costs of any F1 Activities incurred by entities within
the F1 Team's Legal Group Structure but outside its Reporting Group, other than Finance Costs
and costs Directly Attributable to Marketing Activities undertaken by any such entity, must
either be:

(a) recharged at Fair Value to a Reporting Group Entity and thereby included within Total
Costs of the Reporting Group; or

(b) included in Relevant Costs at Fair Value by way of an Adjustment to Total Costs of the
Reporting Group, as a Related Party Transaction pursuant to Article 4.1(a)(i).

In other words if you tried to get sly with how someone is paid it could come back to bite you, If your concept of fair value doesn't align with the FIA's audit team!

[Quantum]

I asked you to give me all the upgrades from each GP weekend. You DIDN'T and still don't!!
It is a lie that RBR brought every weekend an update and you know it!!!

viewtopic.php?p=1094518#p1094518

Granted not every race. Apologies for upsetting you. Just the vast majority of races.

It's common knowledge.

Mercedes remained steadfast in its approach. It used a pragmatic approach to dial back performance and find a set-up that would put it in the hunt alongside Red Bull, while largely sticking to its usual plan of introducing upgrade packages at key waypoints during the season.
Red Bull on the other hand, which has often been slow out the blocks in terms of development, opted for a piecemeal approach for 2021, with a constant stream of updates arriving at almost every race and some larger update packages thrown into the mix for good measure.

If you read the story you can see exactly where RB was throwing all sorts of resources into development upgrades.
Far more than Mercedes, Ferrari, Alpine I'm 100% sure of this.

Now if you could find that FIA link you cited please.
I've done you a good turn mate, c'mon lets see what you have to dispute that Red Bull were the most active in upgrades last season. Fair is fair.

[zibby43]

.
So RBR has upgrade packages to the car every weekend?
And they were "producing updates ad nauseaum."?
Could you show me from each weekend the upgrades? I can't find them. Thankx.

.
I've provided you with the motorsport links.

If you wish to dispute my post, by all means find a link to dispute the motorsport story with links to all the upgrades RB brought last season.

.
So you are posting Motorsport claims here without checking if they are correct at all!
The FIA documents show that RBR did not bring upgrades very often at all. Only the usual modifications belonging to a circuit, which every team did.
But those FIA facts are obviously not correct in your opinion. The Motorsport site is more reliable !!

Those “documents” are next to useless, unfortunately. It’s up to the teams what they want to share on those and how they want to describe the parts.

Whether it be the Race, AMuS, or Motorsport.com, the rate of RBR’s development in 2021 and 2022 was well-documented (photographs, drawings, etc.) and far outpaced every team on the grid, including the other big 2 of Ferrari and Merc.

Toto didn’t understand it last year. Mattia didn’t understand it this year. Just off the top of my head, the number of new floors RBR have produced this year is incredible.

Someone pointed out that the overspend amount is analogous to designing a B-spec car over the course of a season.

The simple fact is, if the FIA don’t come down hard on RBR, it would benefit both Mercedes, Ferrari, et al. to spend whatever it takes to recover the deficit heading into 2023.

[Quantum]

Those “documents” are next to useless, unfortunately. It’s up to the teams what they want to share on those and how they want to describe the parts.

Whether it be the Race, AMuS, or Motorsport.com, the rate of RBR’s development in 2021 and 2022 was well-documented (photographs, drawings, etc.) and far outpaced every team on the grid, including the other big 2 of Ferrari and Merc.

Toto didn’t understand it last year. Mattia didn’t understand it this year. Just off the top of my head, the number of new floors RBR have produced this year is incredible.

Someone pointed out that the overspend amount is analogous to designing a B-spec car over the course of a season.

The simple fact is, if the FIA don’t come down hard on RBR, it would benefit both Mercedes, Ferrari, et al. to spend whatever it takes to recover the deficit heading into 2023.

I don't mind spending 30 mins to correlate what has been documented here on these pages and the media, to the source that Wouter is referencing, but has yet to produce.
It would be constructive and isolate any ambiguity.

Because as you rightly say, teams can just put whatever they want on there. As demonstrated by some teams(unnamed due to possible trigger reaction), clearly having new parts and not disclosing them on the sheet.

[zibby43]

Those “documents” are next to useless, unfortunately. It’s up to the teams what they want to share on those and how they want to describe the parts.

Whether it be the Race, AMuS, or Motorsport.com, the rate of RBR’s development in 2021 and 2022 was well-documented (photographs, drawings, etc.) and far outpaced every team on the grid, including the other big 2 of Ferrari and Merc.

Toto didn’t understand it last year. Mattia didn’t understand it this year. Just off the top of my head, the number of new floors RBR have produced this year is incredible.

Someone pointed out that the overspend amount is analogous to designing a B-spec car over the course of a season.

The simple fact is, if the FIA don’t come down hard on RBR, it would benefit both Mercedes, Ferrari, et al. to spend whatever it takes to recover the deficit heading into 2023.

I don't mind spending 30 mins to correlate what has been documented here on these pages and the media, to the source that Wouter is referencing, but has yet to produce.
It would be constructive and isolate any ambiguity.

Because as you rightly say, teams can just put whatever they want on there. As demonstrated by some teams(unnamed due to possible trigger reaction), clearly having new parts and not disclosing them on the sheet.

100%. Those docs are more “Hide and Seek” than “Show and Tell.”

[smellybeard]

Just thinking, if travel costs are exempt, hotels, flights, food. What about the cost of personnel while travelling between races?

Is it a travel cost for paying someone to sit on a plane/coach?

Could RedBull Technology be paying staff wages 100% but only claim money from RBR for time spent in the base or at race tracks?
So a race team member might be contracted to work 50h/w but RedBull only utilise 35h/w and so save 30% on salaries?

RedBull Technology supply the staff where RedBull Racing needs them and so only pays for what they use? Is that a thing???

Maybe they had staff on holidays and off sick when they didn't have a spanner in their hand.

[smellybeard]

Toto didn’t understand it last year. Mattia didn’t understand it this year. Just off the top of my head, the number of new floors RBR have produced this year is incredible.

Someone pointed out that the overspend amount is analogous to designing a B-spec car over the course of a season.

The simple fact is, if the FIA don’t come down hard on RBR, it would benefit both Mercedes, Ferrari, et al. to spend whatever it takes to recover the deficit heading into 2023.

If RB are doing the same accounting tricks this year what they did last year - but to a greater extent because of the lowering cap - and their accounting gets thrown out by the CCAP, they'll be facing penalties for the same offence two years in a row. Max may well get away with it for 2021 but if it were to happen again in '22, all bets would be off.

I think Ferrari need to do the best they can for the rest of the year and try to finish the championship no more than five seconds behind. By the same token, Red Bull need to keep blasting away a bigger margin.

[Wouter]

I asked you to give me all the upgrades from each GP weekend. You DIDN'T and still don't!!
It is a lie that RBR brought every weekend an update and you know it!!!

viewtopic.php?p=1094518#p1094518

.
Now if you could find that FIA link you cited please.
I've done you a good turn mate, c'mon lets see what you have to dispute that Red Bull were the most active in upgrades last season. Fair is fair.

.
Are you serious now? Can't you read or are you trolling? I've already given you an answer to the same question twice!

There is not ONE list. Every race weekend you have to check on the FIA site.

viewtopic.php?p=1094518#p1094518

[Quantum]

Are you serious now? Can't you read or are you trolling? I've already given you an answer to the same question twice!

There is not ONE list. Every race weekend you have to check on the FIA site.

viewtopic.php?p=1094518#p1094518

I asked for a link for the source you are citing as you made the claim RB did not upgrade every race.

I'm not trolling, I just want to know where you got your information from and why is it that you can readily make the claim but you can't provide a single source for even a single GP event.
So if possible, can you even provide one single source to say that Red Bull did not have updates on their car for a single race weekend?

That makes it so much easier for you.

[organic]

Are you serious now? Can't you read or are you trolling? I've already given you an answer to the same question twice!

There is not ONE list. Every race weekend you have to check on the FIA site.

viewtopic.php?p=1094518#p1094518

I asked for a link for the source you are citing as you made the claim RB did not upgrade every race.

I'm not trolling, I just want to know where you got your information from and why is it that you can readily make the claim but you can't provide a single source for even a single GP event.
So if possible, can you even provide one single source to say that Red Bull did not have updates on their car for a single race weekend?

That makes it so much easier for you.

Wait, do you seriously believe RB updated the rb16b every race?

There is the rb16b thread on this very site that will show you the final raced bodywork update to the rb16b was at the Belgian GP. No updates after that are confirmed other than a diffuser tested but not used at Saudi Arabia!

That is, if you don't count the low downforce Monza package everyone brings

[littlebigcat]

Another potential sticking point!

2.10 In the calculation of Relevant Costs, the costs of any F1 Activities incurred by entities within
the F1 Team's Legal Group Structure but outside its Reporting Group, other than Finance Costs
and costs Directly Attributable to Marketing Activities undertaken by any such entity, must
either be:

(a) recharged at Fair Value to a Reporting Group Entity and thereby included within Total
Costs of the Reporting Group; or

(b) included in Relevant Costs at Fair Value by way of an Adjustment to Total Costs of the
Reporting Group, as a Related Party Transaction pursuant to Article 4.1(a)(i).

In other words if you tried to get sly with how someone is paid it could come back to bite you, If your concept of fair value doesn't align with the FIA's audit team!

This and your prior quoted rules might align with my thinking that the sticking point is in how RBR has constructed its racing team. RBR seems to be entirely an entity to hold the race license and receive prize and sponsorship money. RBAT is the actual racing team.

Though these rules are a bit opaque to me compared to the tech ones.