2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[codetower]

These would hamper further progress, but shouldn't you try and remove the advantage a team gained by breaking the rules?

You can't really undo what they have gained, as you can't erase what they have learned, all you can do is hinder their ability to continue to benefit from it. The only other option is embarrassing them my taking points/titles away.

I'd personally do a little of both, but that's just me!

Yeah there is a side of me that would like to see the RB drivers and team lose points from last year, but I don't want to suggest it as I'm not sure this stems from bias, or not. I wouldn't be upset if it happened, put it that way. Thought that is unlikely.

This is precisely how I feel. I'm really trying to not let my bias cloud my view in this, but I think the only way to keep teams from doing this in the future is to remove points/championships. I've always said, I want my team to win on merit and not winning with help form the FIA. But by only imposing a fine, a slap on the wrist... what is to stop Ferrari/Mercedes/McLaren from at least entertaining the thought of overspending, if it gives you an advantage, and can win you a title. If it costs me an extra 50 million for a championship, so be it. I'll find a way around the sanctions later.

[chrisc90]

If you deduct WCC points, then surely that puts the team at a lower space in the championship, and the following year they will be eligible for more CFD/tunnel time based on the sliding scale?

[RZS10]

IIRC the standings from the end of 2021 applied for the first half of 2022, then it changed based on the standings at that time - so they would be eligible for more CFD time in a period which has passed anyways.

[mwillems]

If you deduct WCC points, then surely that puts the team at a lower space in the championship, and the following year they will be eligible for more CFD/tunnel time based on the sliding scale?

It is a really good point. By ruining a season alone they could get an advantage back AND get more time to develop in the following year.

[dans79]

If you deduct WCC points, then surely that puts the team at a lower space in the championship, and the following year they will be eligible for more CFD/tunnel time based on the sliding scale?

Depends how draconian you want to be.

The FIA could easily say we are taking X points from each driver and 2X from the team for the year of the violation, as well as Y% reduction in cfd and tunnel time based on where they finish the subsequent year.

As the rules are written the FIA can drop a sledge hammer on a team for a breach (even a minor one). The question is will they do it!

[mwillems]

I doubt it. But it's been a really interesting and constructive conversation tonight around what those punishments could look like and its interesting to see there is a broad consensus, if not agreement on specifics.

[fourmula1]

The reason there needs to be serious sporting penalties is that any of the top teams will willingly spend 250m (in fines) to win the championship. A 250m fine to RB is nothing compared to the ROI for winning the championship last year.

(I chose the number 250m just to make a point, I have no idea what amount it could/should be)

Edit: there are other reasons too. Sporting integrity for those who care. Otherwise its just a business/game - similar to the Ferrari fuel flow situation, they wont exactly call RB cheaters and tarnish their name, but if RB is struggling for 3rd place next year are we going to say the other two found that much more performance or....

[Just_a_fan]

Reading through all the nonsense about alleged benefits that RB might have had with the budget breach, either from couch potato experts here on the forum or from the incompetent teams in the paddock, makes me laugh. As if more money equals more performance on face value. If so, we would have had the likes of Toyota, Ferrari winning championships all these years easily. It's only a reflection of bitternes and sour losers that need to show to their Board their worth, when they cannot compete with brain power by a mile. Zak "complaining" to FIA?! Give me a break, who TF is he at all to be given any space on any publication.

So the FIA can reduce Red Bull's budget for the next two years by, say, $10m per year and it won't matter at all? They won't notice. Performance will be just as good?

[mwillems]

I was going to butt my nose out of this conversation but something just occurred to me, apologies if it was mentioned before, I might be being very slow.

Is there a situation in which no punishment outweighed the cost of going over budget? What if they didn't go over budget and did not win the title either last or this year. Where would Max be next year if he had another 2 seasons without titles?

Perhaps there is no cost that would stop this being worthwhile to Red Bull, even if they lose the '21 drivers championship.

[chrisc90]

I was going to butt my nose out of this conversation but something just occurred to me, apologies if it was mentioned before, I might be being very slow.

Is there a situation in which no punishment outweighed the cost of going over budget? What if they didn't go over budget and did not win the title either last or this year. Where would Max be next year if he had another 2 seasons without titles?

Perhaps there is no cost that would stop this being worthwhile to Red Bull, even if they lose the '21 drivers championship.

Seriously cant see that can of worms of the '21 drivers championship being re-opened. There would be chaos.

Im sure the 2 times where the FIA has imposed a penalty....the crashgate saga with Alonso? and the pink mercedes....Drivers points remained untouched.

[mwillems]

I was going to butt my nose out of this conversation but something just occurred to me, apologies if it was mentioned before, I might be being very slow.

Is there a situation in which no punishment outweighed the cost of going over budget? What if they didn't go over budget and did not win the title either last or this year. Where would Max be next year if he had another 2 seasons without titles?

Perhaps there is no cost that would stop this being worthwhile to Red Bull, even if they lose the '21 drivers championship.

Seriously cant see that can of worms of the '21 drivers championship being re-opened. There would be chaos.

Im sure the 2 times where the FIA has imposed a penalty....the crashgate saga with Alonso? and the pink mercedes....Drivers points remained untouched.

Well the principal I was trying to outline was around the idea of whether the worst case outcome for Red Bell would still be worth an overspend.

I'm not suggesting what the FIA would do or that they'd take a title, just that it is possible that getting Max even one title is enough to keep him at the team and to satisfy the big bosses. Even if they have 2 titles reduced to one and have a future season ruined, is it worth it?

It's not hard to argue it is, unfortunately.
I suspect if you'd said to them you'll spend two seasons getting back your pace but get max 2 drivers titles, they take it, pay a $50m fine, lost CFD, Wind Tunnel, some budget and dance naked in the paddock every race weekend in '23.

[Just_a_fan]

I was going to butt my nose out of this conversation but something just occurred to me, apologies if it was mentioned before, I might be being very slow.

Is there a situation in which no punishment outweighed the cost of going over budget? What if they didn't go over budget and did not win the title either last or this year. Where would Max be next year if he had another 2 seasons without titles?

Perhaps there is no cost that would stop this being worthwhile to Red Bull, even if they lose the '21 drivers championship.

Seriously cant see that can of worms of the '21 drivers championship being re-opened. There would be chaos.

Im sure the 2 times where the FIA has imposed a penalty....the crashgate saga with Alonso? and the pink mercedes....Drivers points remained untouched.

No way Max loses either title. The team will be punished but not the drivers. Even back in 2007 when McLaren were thrown out of the championship, the drivers kept their points.

[mwillems]

I was going to butt my nose out of this conversation but something just occurred to me, apologies if it was mentioned before, I might be being very slow.

Is there a situation in which no punishment outweighed the cost of going over budget? What if they didn't go over budget and did not win the title either last or this year. Where would Max be next year if he had another 2 seasons without titles?

Perhaps there is no cost that would stop this being worthwhile to Red Bull, even if they lose the '21 drivers championship.

Seriously cant see that can of worms of the '21 drivers championship being re-opened. There would be chaos.

Im sure the 2 times where the FIA has imposed a penalty....the crashgate saga with Alonso? and the pink mercedes....Drivers points remained untouched.

No way Max loses either title. The team will be punished but not the drivers. Even back in 2007 when McLaren were thrown out of the championship, the drivers kept their points.

The point was not about taking titles or what the FIA would do. The question was, is there a cost higher than getting max even just 1 WDC, because I don't know if it has been discussed in here what actually was it worth to them.

More than what we think, quite possibly a lot more.

[Mosin123]

I was going to butt my nose out of this conversation but something just occurred to me, apologies if it was mentioned before, I might be being very slow.

Is there a situation in which no punishment outweighed the cost of going over budget? What if they didn't go over budget and did not win the title either last or this year. Where would Max be next year if he had another 2 seasons without titles?

Perhaps there is no cost that would stop this being worthwhile to Red Bull, even if they lose the '21 drivers championship.

Seriously cant see that can of worms of the '21 drivers championship being re-opened. There would be chaos.

Im sure the 2 times where the FIA has imposed a penalty....the crashgate saga with Alonso? and the pink mercedes....Drivers points remained untouched.

No way Max loses either title. The team will be punished but not the drivers. Even back in 2007 when McLaren were thrown out of the championship, the drivers kept their points.

Although i agree for 9 of the teams, For Redbull, it isnt a punishment, Redbull dont care at all about the contructors, never have never will, you can find loads of speaches from Horner and Marko saying exactly that over the years....

Plus, this season and last now has no integrity, both championships tarnished and not a good look for the sport in general, i also dont buy this rubbish harshly punihsing Redbull is bad for the sport, Punishing cheats has always worked in favour of all sports who do it... Punihsing cheats only serves to uphold the integrity of the sport which should be the most important aspect of any sport. with out it, its not sport.

[dans79]

I'm not suggesting what the FIA would do or that they'd take a title, just that it is possible that getting Max even one title is enough to keep him at the team and to satisfy the big bosses. Even if they have 2 titles reduced to one and have a future season ruined, is it worth it?

It's not hard to argue it is, unfortunately.
I suspect if you'd said to them you'll spend two seasons getting back your pace but get max 2 drivers titles, they take it, pay a $50m fine, lost CFD, Wind Tunnel, some budget and dance naked in the paddock every race weekend in '23.

you mean something like this?

https://f1-insider.com/en/verstappen-re ... ct-clause/

“Yes, there is a performance clause. I don’t want to go into details, but it more or less says that Max can compete for race wins and the world championship on his own merits. If he can do that, his contract is extended. If not, he would be free.”

It's rumored his new contract also has a performance exit clause!