2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[Just_a_fan]

Thank you for proving my point, you win a prize!!
George Russell could still be in the running for 2022 WDC

If he wins it by staying within the rules then that's a good result for everyone, isn't it?

Or are you deliberately trying to goad Hamilton fans?

[dans79]

Direct link to AMuS:

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ausnahmen/

Catering at the track is as much marketing as feeding the staff. They could separate staff food/drink from food served to others, but it would probably cost as much as it would save.

Imagine losing a title because of a improperly reported club sandwich!

[Sieper]

Horner has been public on a number of occasions saying that they don't care about the constructor title. It's a simple fact that they prioritise one driver.

I thought you said Horners' claim that redbull believes to be within budget cap was false.

Ah, so because he might be lying about one thing means everything he says is a lie?

What a strange idea.

Strange is when you usually feel Horner is lying, except when it fits a narrative you have just come up with and like to drive.

[Sieper]

They dont use them as excuses in other sports to allow cheaters/ rule breakers to have titles, in fact, most sports are pretty strict with protecting it. Redbull having to answer to its sponsors and so on if nothing at all to do with the FIA, they should have made sure they stayed with in budget.

I doubt Max will lose any titles because of the uproar and stink and the fact it will further polarise the sport which to be fair, no one wants. RB may lose this years constructors title though and that may be on the table I suppose but I still doubt that.

The stink with last year has largely been dealt with and the aftershocks (of which this is one) are all manageable. If I was the FIA I wouldn't go through all of that again, and not with the particular fanatic Max supporters!

The after shocks of last year are still going round and no body has moved on, the fia came to a decision only max fans agree with, no nuetral fan i know believes LH shouldn't have last years title, only redbull / max fans, if you think all is ok when only 1 party is happy with the outcome i guess we have different interpretations of ok..

Near enough every controversial thing is f1 is never forgotten. Maradona hand of god is still talked about like it happened last year and that happened like 80 odd years ago.

No body at all complained when lanve Armstrong was stripped of not one title, but 7. Every body but lance was happy..

No body cared when juve got relegation and or prevented from gaining promotion for 2 seasons because they got caught match fixing.

No body cared when derby county broke financial fair play rules and was docked points and relegated.

No body ever complained in its 2, thousand odd years of cheaters being punished in the Olympics...

No body cares when southampton fc got relegated twice and started on (20 points for breaching financial fair play rules.

No body complained when chelsea was banned from signing playera for breaking rules.

No body cared when liverpool broke youth players transfer rules and got banned.

No body complained when Rivaldo was banned from international football for play acting and getting a player sent off in the world cup.

The only time any body complains is when offenders are not appropriately punished.

Completely the opposite. It is just LH fans who are desperately out for getting a title he lost to Max. All neutral fans I have spoken with, seen commentaries of, feel Max is the deserved champion.

[dans79]

All neutral fans I have spoken with, seen commentaries of, feel Max is the deserved champion.

its more than fans that have an issue with it!

[Just_a_fan]

I thought you said Horners' claim that redbull believes to be within budget cap was false.

Ah, so because he might be lying about one thing means everything he says is a lie?

What a strange idea.

Strange is when you usually feel Horner is lying, except when it fits a narrative you have just come up with and like to drive.

People sometimes tell the truth, sometimes they lie. That's just the human condition.

[Ferry]

The only result that would sit with that is removal of the winner, and having no winner.

My thoughts too. No winner declared in 2021 due to "circumstances". Then everyone can be angry at the FIA, and rightfully so. Then limit testing, wind tunnel, cfd etc. But to a reasonable level. Then everyone can enjoy fighting on track in 2023. LH can win a title if the car is good enough, and all the others can compete. And we, the fans, get proper racing. Could work.

[Just_a_fan]

Completely the opposite. It is just LH fans who are desperately out for getting a title he lost to Max. All neutral fans I have spoken with, seen commentaries of, feel Max is the deserved champion.

I actually don't have a problem with the voided title idea. Just mark 2021 down as "no champion" and move on. That's probably the simplest outcome all round.

I'm sure Lewis, just like every other driver, wouldn't want to be given a title a year later because a rival was disqualified. That's not how these guys work. None of them want "asterisk championships".

[Just_a_fan]

The only result that would sit with that is removal of the winner, and having no winner.

My thoughts too. No winner declared in 2021 due to "circumstances". Then everyone can be angry at the FIA, and rightfully so. Then limit testing, wind tunnel, cfd etc. But to a reasonable level. Then everyone can enjoy fighting on track in 2023. LH can win a title if the car is good enough, and all the others can compete. And we, the fans, get proper racing. Could work.

Could work and I think it's a reasonable approach.

Won't happen however. Not a chance in hell that the FIA would do that, nor would Red Bull do anything other than spend the next 6 months taking them to court. It would end up being a total ----fest.

[RZS10]

[.... RB] would be eligible for more CFD time in a period which has passed anyways.

[1] And those other teams that finished below them would be eligible for less time (which they are unable to use - the qualifying period has passed), making it possible that some (if not all) of them breached their respective caps.

[2] Any penalty that isn’t a Schumacher-style ‘ban’ for the season in question can only be awarded for future time/funds/activities.

[3] In the eyes/minds of some, no punishment will be harsh enough, regardless of how minor/major the breach. Although an ‘empty’ 8th WDC may go some way to achieving fairness….

1. I guess you still wanted to have the top sentence all in hypotheticals?
WIth a (very high) penalty for RB the others should have had less CFD time and they would in theory have been over the cap (not budget but cfd) ... point was that it's all in the past and there would be no way to 'fix' it.

Thing is that you'd have to reduce their team points by a total of 263 (131.5 per driver) or ~45% for them to drop behind Ferrari, which would probably be a lot given that they can be over by 5% at most, so that's not really a concern i'd say.

2. The crux of the matter is that the point deduction (not necessarily a DSQ/season ban*) for any given year is the only tool at the disposal of the FIA which can meaningfully penalize any team for a transgression in that year - if the breach is significant (the definition of that may vary) any other penalty lets them get away with it.

* a DSQ/season ban is not possible with a 'minor' breach viewtopic.php?p=1092393#p1092393

3. The same is true for the opposite viewpoint, no? Any penalty will be too harsh because it's "just a minor breach", can't make everyone happy. In theory they have been given an excellent opportunity to make up for the "human error".

But yea ... I wouldn't want to sit on that panel (if it comes to it), deciding how to penalize them and/or determining how much of a point deduction would be appropriate will be hell.
_______________

[...]
Now the real can of worms.
How many people placed bets on either Max or Lewis being champion, drivers or teams final positions etc.

Betting probably is not an issue as there's surely something in the fine print - one bookmaker even paid out WDC and AD wins for Lewis as well as for Max anyways.

As an example: some horse got DSQd in Feb 22 from a Derby it won in May 21. Nothing happened to the bets.

[Sieper]

Completely the opposite. It is just LH fans who are desperately out for getting a title he lost to Max. All neutral fans I have spoken with, seen commentaries of, feel Max is the deserved champion.

I actually don't have a problem with the voided title idea. Just mark 2021 down as "no champion" and move on. That's probably the simplest outcome all round.

I'm sure Lewis, just like every other driver, wouldn't want to be given a title a year later because a rival was disqualified. That's not how these guys work. None of them want "asterisk championships".

But it isn’t, only in your mind, I would rather call it a “Exclamation mark” championship. Beating Lewis in the WCC car despite a lot of bad luck and other things.

Mercedes has fought tooth and nail to try and get it overturned and now with this cap story it is just the new/last straw to try and clutch on to. Same playbook is being carried out by the same players. Toto “not wanting to be the judge” then proceeding with the verdict. Mercedes engine customer also being lined up to chime in. Exactly the same as last round.

[Mosin123]

Completely the opposite. It is just LH fans who are desperately out for getting a title he lost to Max. All neutral fans I have spoken with, seen commentaries of, feel Max is the deserved champion.

I actually don't have a problem with the voided title idea. Just mark 2021 down as "no champion" and move on. That's probably the simplest outcome all round.

I'm sure Lewis, just like every other driver, wouldn't want to be given a title a year later because a rival was disqualified. That's not how these guys work. None of them want "asterisk championships".

But it isn’t, only in your mind, I would rather call it a “Exclamation mark” championship. Beating Lewis in the WCC car despite a lot of bad luck and other things.

Mercedes has fought tooth and nail to try and get it overturned and now with this cap story it is just the new/last straw to try and clutch on to. Same playbook is being carried out by the same players. Toto “not wanting to be the judge” then proceeding with the verdict. Mercedes engine customer also being lined up to chime in. Exactly the same as last round.

You missed my team, Ferrari of that list, we have said the same as Toto has pretty much, not the same choice of words mind, but the same none the less.

In describing Max's title last year, he WAS deserving, i caps "was" for a reason, With what happened on the last race was out side of teams control, ok sure, But throwing in a technically ( via overspending ) illegal car on top is to much. it does question the championship, when taking into account Horner does say only 200 odd k can be enough ( as dan posted above ).

Of course that is my opinion

[mwillems]

Aftershocks are still going round, but if we give the title to Ham we are triggering another earthquake.

Only if it’s not plainly simply by explaining the rules.

The rider who won the Tour after Armstrong’s 7th was another American, Floyd Landis. Months after the Tour had been finished he returned a positive for EPO for one of the stages at the Tour, the decisive one that created his overall victory.

He cheated, it was discovered after the race, he was banned and the win was handed to the person who finished 2nd. Clear in the rules.

Landis then went on to finally start the process that got Armstrong stripped of his titles. But it was so later those Tours officially have no winners now.

There is no way that reversing the title decision will not cause a huge uproar even bigger than the sport has had in a very long time

[SiLo]

Completely the opposite. It is just LH fans who are desperately out for getting a title he lost to Max. All neutral fans I have spoken with, seen commentaries of, feel Max is the deserved champion.

I actually don't have a problem with the voided title idea. Just mark 2021 down as "no champion" and move on. That's probably the simplest outcome all round.

I'm sure Lewis, just like every other driver, wouldn't want to be given a title a year later because a rival was disqualified. That's not how these guys work. None of them want "asterisk championships".

But it isn’t, only in your mind, I would rather call it a “Exclamation mark” championship. Beating Lewis in the WCC car despite a lot of bad luck and other things.

Mercedes has fought tooth and nail to try and get it overturned and now with this cap story it is just the new/last straw to try and clutch on to. Same playbook is being carried out by the same players. Toto “not wanting to be the judge” then proceeding with the verdict. Mercedes engine customer also being lined up to chime in. Exactly the same as last round.

At the end of the day Red Bull have breached the budget cap, and if the FIA deem it something that isn't a grey area they will be punished.

Mercedes and Toto are playing the game that Horner and Red Bull play as well, it's part of the sport and always has been. Hell, Senna probably lost a title because of politics like that.

Personally, I'd find it quite funny if Max got his title taken away from him, only for the ungodly amount of salt that would be pouring out of RB and their fans. All fans are like this, in all sports, and complaining about it will never get anyone anywhere.

[mwillems]

They dont use them as excuses in other sports to allow cheaters/ rule breakers to have titles, in fact, most sports are pretty strict with protecting it. Redbull having to answer to its sponsors and so on if nothing at all to do with the FIA, they should have made sure they stayed with in budget.

I doubt Max will lose any titles because of the uproar and stink and the fact it will further polarise the sport which to be fair, no one wants. RB may lose this years constructors title though and that may be on the table I suppose but I still doubt that.

The stink with last year has largely been dealt with and the aftershocks (of which this is one) are all manageable. If I was the FIA I wouldn't go through all of that again, and not with the particular fanatic Max supporters!

The after shocks of last year are still going round and no body has moved on, the fia came to a decision only max fans agree with, no nuetral fan i know believes LH shouldn't have last years title, only redbull / max fans, if you think all is ok when only 1 party is happy with the outcome i guess we have different interpretations of ok..

Near enough every controversial thing is f1 is never forgotten. Maradona hand of god is still talked about like it happened last year and that happened like 80 odd years ago.

No body at all complained when lanve Armstrong was stripped of not one title, but 7. Every body but lance was happy..

No body cared when juve got relegation and or prevented from gaining promotion for 2 seasons because they got caught match fixing.

No body cared when derby county broke financial fair play rules and was docked points and relegated.

No body ever complained in its 2, thousand odd years of cheaters being punished in the Olympics...

No body cares when southampton fc got relegated twice and started on (20 points for breaching financial fair play rules.

No body complained when chelsea was banned from signing playera for breaking rules.

No body cared when liverpool broke youth players transfer rules and got banned.

No body complained when Rivaldo was banned from international football for play acting and getting a player sent off in the world cup.

The only time any body complains is when offenders are not appropriately punished.

None of those are in F1.