2010 regulation row on £40m budget cap

[gcdugas]

Don't be so negative. It would be nice to have the politicking out of the way for the next GP in Turkey.

Yes, it would be very nice. However it is unlikely. Indeed it is very improbably given that Max is unwilling to yield. The teams have gone as far as they can but still Max refuses to give an inch. Remember, the teams have united. They have sent a letter with signatures from all ten team principles. Ferrari has sued the FIA. They will not enter under Max's rules. And for once the governance of the sport is a talking point as they have had it with Max's unilateral dictates. These things will not be resolved in the next 6 days. Indeed, it may get very bloody. Prince Albert has no interest in a F1 series without Ferrari and Ferrari are very serious about leaving, as is Toyota.

Keep hoping, I am but I don't expect anything to happen. I expect the opposite. Max seems to be digging in wanting to charge the teams a fine for missing the deadline, even saying some of them could be left out if there is no more room on the grid. Imagine Max telling Mercedes they can't race because iSport has filled the grid... it is laughable, but such is the foolhardy nonsensical threats that he keeps spouting off.

[andartop]

So, what happens if the protesting teams stick to that letter they sent Max, he doesn't yield, and then Saturday morning we find out that indeed McLaren, Force India, Brawn GP and Williams DID sign up for 2010 at the last minute???
Let's not forget McLaren is on probation..

[chrys]

Williams F1 team submit entry for 2010

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/feedarticle/8524435

[modbaraban]

So mach for that FOTA unity...

[gridwalker]

Williams F1 team submit entry for 2010

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/feedarticle/8524435

It's hardly surprising ... The other non-manufacturer teams (except for Brawn) are owned by my businessmen who have their primary business interests outside of F1, but Frank Williams is a racing man, through and through.

Williams Grand Prix Engineering exist for F1 : it's Frank's bread & butter, so threatening to split away will seriously damage the business that he's taken 30 years to build and has been fighting to keep in an era where his team has been sidelined by the big-money powerplayers of Mercedes and Ferrari. The fact that Williams have been awarded a juicy tender for building the new Formula Two chassis also means that they are in no position to piss off the FIA.

All of the other teams can engage in this brinksmanship without fearing the loss of their livelihood. VJM has his billions, DM can sell his fizzy drinks, the manufacturers can flog their cars and McLaren can fall back onto their diversified interests.

Brawn is an exception, however they are still running on Honda money so I don't think they really count ...

Williams are the only team who could lose EVERYTHING by not lodging an entry.

Does anyone believe that they'd go to the wall for Ferrari's sake?

[WhiteBlue]

It was allways clear from Sir Frank and Patrick Head's comments that this would happen. After all their 2009 budget have been saved by FOM paying them an advance on the TV money. They cannot exist unless they race in F1. I do not think that the FOTA will pay their 2010 bills for them.

Montezemolo has simply fibbed when he told the press that all teams are united in the Ferrari/Toyota boycott. It was simply a spiel to up the negotiation pressure. A potential break away from FOM cannot happen before 2012 due to the existing contracts. Ferrari face a 300 mil $ bill from Bernie if they should walk before 2012 according to AMuS. My guess is that McLaren, Brawn, FIF1, Red Bull, Toro Rosso and BMW will also make an application before the week ends. Ferrari, Toyota and Renault may drag it out and risk comming late if the negotiations fail to conclude before Friday.

Toyota and Renault may both be considering to leave F1 anyway and Ferrari can certainly afford to buy a smaller team if they end up without a chair when the music stops. If there are indeed seven or eight serious applicants then the grid would be filled with six or seven traditional teams. At least Merc and BMW would not risk the need for aquisitions to stay in F1. In the current situation Theissen and Haug would probably not get an approval of their boards to buy a minor team that posesses a 2010 license.

Renault could be a different issue. They could have a decision to pull out and sell the team to Briatore for a symbolic €. Flav would have no problems to buy himself back into F1 being his own man.

http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/mo ... =8&catid=0

So it looks like 4 entrants are serious enough to pay Cosworth 2.5 mil for an engine contract down payment.

Good news that Cosworth is coming back to F1 and also good to learn that new teams are definetely making serious moves for the empty grid slots. So at least 1 team may not get a seat when the music stops.

[nudger]

im not sure you can suggest a lack of unity. i think that fota is aware of who will sign by the end of the week, and who wont unless they get concessions. i dont think there is anything underhand about it.
the story of a 10 team boycott was exagerated press headlines as per usual.
whether anyone withdrawing would be liable to FOM is debatable, and would almost certainly need a court to decide. I dont think ferrari would agree with bernues interpration of the legal situation.
i fully expect to see williams joined by mclaren, brawn and force india by the end of the week....im not so sure about any of the others though

[Ciro Pabón]

I think that the difference is that Williams doesn't sell cars nor uses F1 to advertise directly its products.

Ferrari, BMW, Toyota, Renault, even McLaren (partially): they all are in F1 because their cars prestige depends, in part, on the prestige of the series.

After all, where did Alfa, Lotus, Audi, Porsche and many others made their name? In racing, didn't they?

Why do you buy such cars? Because, at the bottom of your heart you want to race (or to pretend you're a racer). Mercedes and BMW are in the luxury market, so their commitment is partial (both have partners to prove that point).

An emasculated or spec series is not good for prestige. Manufacturers are in for market management.

On the other hand FOM wants show management, they have a huge investment to defend, they do not depend on selling prestige cars but on people watching TV.

FOM is the weak party, as I see it: their shares value depends on the manufacturers staying (for 90 years more!).

I think it's about time FOM CEOs gets spanked by FOM owners. Unless they're bargaining hard (probable) and are looking for a settlement that serves as a warning for future teams. Show comes first, second comes marketing. Or is it the other way around?

[WhiteBlue]

I think it's about time FOM CEOs gets spanked by FOM owners.

I believe Bernie is the only CEO at FOM. Why should CVC spank him? He seems to be doing a good enough job for their commercial interest it appears to me. Bernie has never failed to focus on making money it is more the good of F1 and racing side he tends to forget occasionally.

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, yes, Ecclestone is the only CEO I know, but I'm not sure about if there is a sub-dictator or not. Mosley would qualify as... what? CE henchman? CE minion?

If Ferrari and Renault split, then the "occasional" forgetfulness would prove fatal. I think he has to recognize that they cannot allow to have a spec engine and such a low investment.

Simple: the manufacturers are powerful because they're rich. If you take away their richesses, will it be shown how naked they are?

Given the fact (already discussed elsewhere) that airplanes are going to be made of carbon fiber, you can assume that it will continue to go down in price.

What happens when you only manufacture a tub? Engines are going kaput, being spec-ed AFAIK.

To sum up: given the results of this season, I guess Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes and Renault must be worried by kids from "Garage 419" building a better car.

I know latinos exaggerate a bit, but consider this: where would be the value of their "Ferrari, Renault and etc." brands if Chaparral, you and me (an improbable team ) can put together a faster car, made with parts made bought in Hong Kong?

The shame of Honda is an example for everybody. It's not only Brawn, it's a group of, I don't know, 50 "core people" living in Kent or Brighton or whatever what beat Honda. Embarrasing.

Would you buy an Honda sport car? I wouldn't, not right now. All of their investment was negative, in terms of marketing.

Imagine what the team at Tokyo must be thinking while they watch Button jogging toward the finish line.

Now, see what happened to Dell, for example. Watch the cellphone market, where "designer" brands are copied overnight. Is that the future of F1 marketing for manufacturers? Oh, shut.

The only exit I see is creating a second series, sort of F2, that runs at the same time as the big guys, but with lap times guaranteed to be at least 4 or 5 seconds larger than times of "first tier" brands.

How can that be done? Thorny... If you spec the engines and Cosworth has, I don't know five clients, can Ferrari beat them consistently? Mass producing has its advantages.

That's not a sporting problem, WB, that's a marketing problem, as I tried to explain (without success).

So, the spanking. Unless the owners are stupid (maybe they are, but I don't know why I tend to think that if you have umpteen thousand billions, you are not that stupid, or at least you can buy a couple of smart guys to handle the thing).

The timing of the proposal is horrible! At least that's how I see it: Honda humiliated and now Mosley wants to establish the basis for the humiliation of BMW.

It's alredy happening, my bavarian friend. What is better, a Tata or a BMW? Right now, if Tata wanted to launch a sport car, they can say Indians are beating the Beemers at Monaco. Sigh. I wouldn't want to be BMW marketing chief (as if I could!).

Spanky needs to be spanked. Besides, it's not like he doesn't like that kind of stuff: this time it will be for free, I guess.

[Scotracer]

F1 has always been more about the cars than the teams for me so the 2010 regulations are truly enticing

Unlimited revs, 160BHP KERS, moveable wings, single race engines? I'M SO --- THERE =D>

[Ciro Pabón]

Ferrari isn't. Not with the budget limit, at least.

[Scotracer]

Ferrari isn't. Not with the budget limit, at least.

And I couldn't really care less, to be honest. I was a die-hard Ferrari fan from 1993 (when I started watching F1) until 2006 but after Shumy left I just stopped caring. Now all I want is to see the fastest cars in the world being driven by the fastest drivers. Maybe it's some sort of maturity. Or maybe it's laziness.

[donskar]

ciro pabon wrote:

An emasculated or spec series is not good for prestige. Manufacturers are in for market management.

On the other hand FOM wants show management, they have a huge investment to defend, they do not depend on selling prestige cars but on people watching TV.

Very thoughtful post. One quibble: without a good show, there is nothing to market. And a good show requires big time entertainers.

Many of us would agree that Lotus, Ferrari, McLaren, Maserati, and Mercedes built their reputations partially on their successes in F1. But Lotus hotly contested F2 (Jim Clark died in one) FF, Group 7 and other classes; Ferrari competed in F1, F2, Euro Hillclimb, and Prototype racing (over AND under 2 liter) all in the same year and alter Can-Am. BUT their reputation is built largely on F1 (and LeMans in teh golden years), because F1 is a premium sport. Yes, it's pretty exclusive as far as ability to compete at the very top. Is that a bad thing? Very few individuals or groups can afford to compete in the Americas Cup. Does that mean the rules should be relaxed or a budget limit put in place?

[WhiteBlue]

To let the manufacturers buy their way to success was foolish in the first place but couldn't probably be helped considering the money they were pouring into the sport and show. So it was always difficult to stop this under the old rules of team veto.

Right now F1 is in the unique position that enough manufacturers want to continue the competition and would accept that they ultimately will not be given an unfair advantage of unlimited resources. There is also Cosworth who can take up the slack and provide a safety net for F1.

FIA and even more FOM have no interest to drive the manufacturers away, they simply want to protect their business modell which I see as legitimate. If it also serves the spectators by re-introducing variety and a more level playing field I don't mind if Toyota eff off and Ferrari catch a bloody nose. Ferrari have had their way for a long time in bending the rules for economic competition that it would probably serve them right to be shown the highway. Just remember the five year contract with Marlboro after all other teams had to cease tobacco sponsoring and the special premium they got for betraying GPMA.

My impression is that the traditional automotive subsidies F1 could count on will dry up for some years and will do so whatever course FIA and FOM pursue. So it makes sense to manage F1 for a smaller revenue stream from that source with some control of their own instead of handing it to Luca.