2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I’m expecting them to be strong in the race, good possibility of at least one of them on the podium

Yes I'm expecting at least 1 of the two on the podium. Max has problems and it could be a win

[Hammerfist]

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... pectations

Lewis Hamilton admitted he was "expecting a lot more" from the upgrades Mercedes brought to the United States Grand Prix, after finishing fifth in qualifying behind the Ferraris and Red Bulls.

"I had been feeling so optimistic all weekend, the car setup was feeling good, everyone back at the factory worked so hard to bring an upgrade and I was so hopeful we would be much closer than we were.

"Once we got to Qualifying, I don't know if it is because the temperatures dropped or wind or what, but the car was such a handful all of a sudden and not unlike any other time we have driven it, but I was expecting a lot more."

Wolff was more optimistic. Says there was 3 tenths more in the car:

"I think for tomorrow we could be part of some exciting games.

"I think Austin was never great for us in the past, and here it's worked well. We're six tenths off, it could have been three, so yes [it's worked]."

Lewis was “expecting more from upgrades” but they didn’t run the full upgrades since the new front wing has not been used did they? So of course they are not going to be as fast as expected. Still better than I thought. The midfield cannot touch them here and I expect Lewis to be all over Sainz today. Should be interesting. Though Max whenever he gets by sainz will most likely disappear but we shall see.

[Stu]

….

Wolff was more optimistic. Says there was 3 tenths more in the car:

"I think for tomorrow we could be part of some exciting games.

"I think Austin was never great for us in the past, and here it's worked well. We're six tenths off, it could have been three, so yes [it's worked]."

[/quote]

Strange thing for Wolff to say…
Winners in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 (all with LH)
Winner in 2019 (with VB).
Not a terrible hit-rate considering they only started racing there in 2012 (and the event never happened in 2020). 5 out of 9 ain’t bad (6 out of 9 if you count Lewis in the Mercedes powered McLaren in 2012!!)

[PlatinumZealot]

The track is bumpy and has a long straights so yeah I'm in agreement with Wolff here. COTA is the ultimate test of whether the car is on RedBull's level but at the same time it won't enable the inherent strengths of the car to come to the fore.

[atanatizante]

Lewis kindda exposes they lost most power from biofuels.. i.m guessing they down 10-12 bhp to red bull and ferrari. That why they get destroyed on the straights

The drag part was always a facade, like Ferrari did in 2020. Being behind on power is not a good thing for 2023. They have to gain loads of downforce without adding an ounce of drag as that donkey at the back is already struggling to pull the current levels.

I don't see how Lewis is going to renew his contract unless there is a miracle next year. The miracle was conceivable if it was only Ferrari that was the competition, but a Red Bull with a better engine, it's just not happening.

I think it's overblown. Every engine lost power and we even calculated it in the engine threads. The teams don't know the power of the others and it would even vary track to track but we do know its closer than it has ever been.

The target is that in 2026 the new PU should use 100% sustainable fuel aka I quote: "This 100% sustainable ‘drop-in fuel’ – meaning it can be used in a standard internal combustion engine without any modification to the engine itself – will be laboratory-created, using components that come from either a carbon capture scheme, municipal waste or non-food biomass, while achieving greenhouse gas emissions savings relative to fossil-derived petrol of at least 65%."

"This new fuel that will run in just over three years’ time will be unique and lab-created", says Ross Brawn

So from the above statements for the next 3 years, all PUs will run this year`s fuel that has 10% ethanol but that doesn`t mean every year they aren`t allowed to change the other 90% fossil fuel chemical blend aka fuel formulation.

I think this year they were playing on the safe side, bearing in mind the 2021 issues they faced and that in 2022 they needed both reliability and knowledge for that 100% sustainable ‘drop-in fuel’ lab fuel goal that has to be achieved.

And when I`m saying they were playing safe we have to take into account that we don`t know how many issues all the PU manufacturers and their contracted petrol companies in F1 were facing when they switched from the 5.75% bio-components to 10% sustainable ethanol ...

That word "bio-components" means there could be a lot of natural chemical products that have combustion properties (e.g. a mixture of rapeseed oil and mineral oils that we could find at petrol stations in order to reduce the lead oxide gases coming out from fuel`s combustion) ...

One of this bio-product/components (you could guess) is ethanol! And it is rumoured that in 2021 ExxonMobil provided Honda with a fuel that had mainly ethanol to reach that 5.75% needed in the fuel mixture and that`s why some top team staff stated early in the year that they were slightly affected by the change to 10% ethanol ...

Now with what HAM declared it seems that Petronas was using in 2021 other bio-product than ethanol and having to switch to this one affected them this year ...

Nonetheless, I hope they come up with a better fuel formulation starting next year and each year for the coming 3 years onwards!

[PlatinumZealot]

I really don't detect any lack of power with this Mercdes engine and I would like to think I have been watching F1 long enough time to have a good way of telling. One of the simple things I do is look at customer cars' performance and note any complaints. There is none of that with the Mercedes customers. McLaren, Aston Martin and Williams are all cars that have good top speeds and are notoriously difficult to overtake. There is also the silly notion coming from rival fans that Mercedes always gives customer teams weaker engines! So what is it then? How is it that Mercedes customers are so much faster on the straights with "weak-ass" engines and inferior chassis? haha. So, it's all just sensationalism to stir the pot. The engine is fine. The customers are happy and any perceived lack of power is obviously down to level of drag.

[AR3-GP]

I really don't detect any lack of power with this Mercdes engine and I would like to think I have been watching F1 long enough time to have a good way of telling.

The driver sitting in the driver seat says the power is lacking. That is more truth than anything we can guess from observation. They have clear clipping issues which were exposed in Monza among other matter-of-fact observations.

Meanwhile Renault, Honda, and Ferrari are all reportedly as good as last year (Honda), or better (Renault due to entirely new architecture) and Ferrari (for more complex reasons....). Merc is the only PU that has gone backwards from 2021 to 2022.

Politically speaking, Merc aren't going to say much (They have 3 supply customers after all), but they know the issues are two fold (power and aero).

[Zynerji]

It would be great to see Hamilton win here. After the tough 2022 campaign, having a win would really set up a 3 way fight in 2023.

[InsaneX_Badger]

It would be great to see Hamilton win here. After the tough 2022 campaign, having a win would really set up a 3 way fight in 2023.

Agreed. If there's a Merc win, hell if Ferrari finish the year on a better foot, it could bring the same excitement that Max's win at 2020 Any Dhabi brought to the 2021 season.

[Hammerfist]

I really don't detect any lack of power with this Mercdes engine and I would like to think I have been watching F1 long enough time to have a good way of telling.

The driver sitting in the driver seat says the power is lacking. That is more truth than anything we can guess from observation. They have clear clipping issues which were exposed in Monza among other matter-of-fact observations.

Meanwhile Renault, Honda, and Ferrari are all reportedly as good as last year (Honda), or better (Renault due to entirely new architecture) and Ferrari (for more complex reasons....). Merc is the only PU that has gone backwards from 2021 to 2022.

Politically speaking, Merc aren't going to say much (They have 3 supply customers after all), but they know the issues are two fold (power and aero).

I think hamilton was talking about compared to last year. As already mentioned all the engines have lost power.
The williams is one of the fastest cars on the straights while the alfa tauri with the supposedly unbelievable honda pu is nothing special in a straight line.
When you add everything up it points to drag being the main issue here and not power.

Anyone who knows about drag racing will tell you that once you are at the 1000 hp level incremental differences in horsepower matter less. It just becomes so much harder to make performance gains at these high power levels. It would probably take 50hp or more for the difference in rb and merc to make sense were it solely or mostly down to power. I dont think there is any chance these engines have 50hp in between them.

[RonMexico]

I really don't detect any lack of power with this Mercdes engine and I would like to think I have been watching F1 long enough time to have a good way of telling.

The driver sitting in the driver seat says the power is lacking. That is more truth than anything we can guess from observation. They have clear clipping issues which were exposed in Monza among other matter-of-fact observations.

Meanwhile Renault, Honda, and Ferrari are all reportedly as good as last year (Honda), or better (Renault due to entirely new architecture) and Ferrari (for more complex reasons....). Merc is the only PU that has gone backwards from 2021 to 2022.

Politically speaking, Merc aren't going to say much (They have 3 supply customers after all), but they know the issues are two fold (power and aero).

Man who enjoyed significant power advantage for 90+% of races in this engine era bemoans not having said advantage anymore, more at 9

[cheeRS]

I really don't detect any lack of power with this Mercdes engine and I would like to think I have been watching F1 long enough time to have a good way of telling.

The driver sitting in the driver seat says the power is lacking. That is more truth than anything we can guess from observation. They have clear clipping issues which were exposed in Monza among other matter-of-fact observations.

Meanwhile Renault, Honda, and Ferrari are all reportedly as good as last year (Honda), or better (Renault due to entirely new architecture) and Ferrari (for more complex reasons....). Merc is the only PU that has gone backwards from 2021 to 2022.

Politically speaking, Merc aren't going to say much (They have 3 supply customers after all), but they know the issues are two fold (power and aero).

Man who enjoyed significant power advantage for 90+% of races in this engine era bemoans not having said advantage anymore, more at 9

What's the point of this comment other than whining?

[AR3-GP]

I really don't detect any lack of power with this Mercdes engine and I would like to think I have been watching F1 long enough time to have a good way of telling.

The driver sitting in the driver seat says the power is lacking. That is more truth than anything we can guess from observation. They have clear clipping issues which were exposed in Monza among other matter-of-fact observations.

Meanwhile Renault, Honda, and Ferrari are all reportedly as good as last year (Honda), or better (Renault due to entirely new architecture) and Ferrari (for more complex reasons....). Merc is the only PU that has gone backwards from 2021 to 2022.

Politically speaking, Merc aren't going to say much (They have 3 supply customers after all), but they know the issues are two fold (power and aero).

I think hamilton was talking about compared to last year. As already mentioned all the engines have lost power.
The williams is one of the fastest cars on the straights while the alfa tauri with the supposedly unbelievable honda pu is nothing special in a straight line.
When you add everything up it points to drag being the main issue here and not power.

Anyone who knows about drag racing will tell you that once you are at the 1000 hp level incremental differences in horsepower matter less. It just becomes so much harder to make performance gains at these high power levels. It would probably take 50hp or more for the difference in rb and merc to make sense were it solely or mostly down to power. I dont think there is any chance these engines have 50hp in between them.

Many subtleties here which you are missing

1) The new fuel caused a reduction in power, before the winter development cycle. That is true for all manufacturers and that's what you are parroting. What you have missed is that each manufacturer had an opportunity to redevelop the fuel and engine over the winter. Some manufacturers did a better job than the others.

Ferrari has more power this year than last year: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... LatoL.html

Renault has more power than last year: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ocon ... y/9509653/

There is a late article where I believe Marko or someone from Honda confirmed (after initially reporting great difficulty) that they did not lose anything from 2021 and 2022.


Now you have the lead Mercedes driver repeating what he most likely has been told by his engineers which is that they have lost engine power (as you know, Hamilton leaks tidbits that his engineers have briefed him on). How many more red flags need be told?



The second matter is that peak power is one thing. Average power is the other. How much power can be sustained? Mercedes (and likely Renault), were no good in Monza and experienced clipping and deployment issues. This is a separate conversation to drag. Clipping has nothing to do with drag. It means the operation of the ICE, MGU-H, and MGU-K just isn't good enough to sustain the peak power down the full straight (strong contrast to Honda/Ferrari).

Top speed is obfuscation to a degree. Even a Honda from 2017 will top the speed traps if you remove all the aero (which is what a 2022 Williams is...a car severely lacking in aero which lends itself to a slippery figure down the straight but terrible in the corners).

[chrisc90]

Why cant the engine mapping be altered for the increase in Ethanol?

I know in conventional engines the mapping is the difference to those running a lot more ethanol E85.

[AR3-GP]

Why cant the engine mapping be altered for the increase in Ethanol?

I know in conventional engines the mapping is the difference to those running a lot more ethanol E85.

The engine mappings have been altered but that's only 1 control parameter for improvement. Without the engine freeze they would have many times more buttons to turn in order to improve. I said it long ago on a different forum that each manufacturer was hoping the freeze would help them lock in an advantage without consideration for what would happen if they were one who was behind. Merc and Renault were adamant that they wer against any sort of help for struggling manufacturers. This is inconvenient for both of these two manufacturers as they have the bottom 2 PUs.