BAR out of the WC?

dumrick · Post 04 May 2005, 15:40

According to F1 Live, the FIA would have requested to FIA's appeal court the simple exclusion from BAR from the World Championship and a US$1,000,000 fine...
They also state that it's not sure if the issue concerns only the concealed fuel tank in the chassis or if there is something else in stake.
Anyway, tomorrow, the FIA should present their decisions.

Scuderia_Russ · Post 04 May 2005, 15:42

Doesn't look good does it? At least this means that performance clauses will not be met so Button will be free to leave for Williams at the end of the year.

dumrick · Post 04 May 2005, 15:55

That would be a terrible blow for Honda, whose image would be damaged for some time. Remember: they bought a substantial share in a team that was competitive, subsequently the team lost competitiveness and, if something has been discovered, it is proved that they start cheating...

2 things I didn't like so far in BAR this year: their attitude in the last lap at Melbourne, to explore a loophole against sporting regulations spirit and the rumours about Honda wanting to make single-race engines (against BAR will), to try to win races at any cost, even with the sacrifice of the following race. This attitudes don't seem worthy of a big, respected and serious firm...

dumrick · Post 04 May 2005, 17:36

There is an update on this issue: FIA formally afirms that BAR was cheating, related with the use of a secret fuel tank as a weight surplus to allow the car passing scrutineering. From their side, BAR says they had a collector tank which had to hold a minimum of six litres of fuel at all times in order for the car to function (according to F1's official site), so the car was OK in every situation...

From its side, Alonso has already addressed killer words on this subject. He even associated BAR's case with the Ferrari testing scandal!!!!!

Well, I'm afraid that, after Ferrari's stupid behaviour and disrespect for teams agreements and the efforts to reduce costs, this file could turn 2005 in one of the darkest years in F1...

jaslfc · Post 05 May 2005, 01:00

ferrari is in no trouble.thy didnt sign the agreement. I think the worst result of this hearing is bar is goin to be fined. One question... if they are trown out.. they will still be able to race but will not be able to score points or are they not able to race?

Mclaren11 · Post 05 May 2005, 01:09

This is not what we need right now. BAR should get fined, and maybe have the Imola race points taken away, but to exclude them from the championship would simply be lunacy. they are a top team who interpreted the rules differently, slap them on the wrist and get on with it.

dumrick · Post 05 May 2005, 10:59

jaslfc wrote:ferrari is in no trouble

I wasn't saying they were. I was only saying that they are cheating, but politics make the FIA not take any measures concerning testing regulations, forcing the teams to agree between themselves to serve FIA's cost reduction policy! It doesn't make Ferrari's attitude less immoral or scandalous.

I've been thinking about what could have driven FIA towards this radical claim (to put BAR out of the championship). In the 80's a far more obviously illegal case with Tyrrell lead only to the withdrawal of their championship points... the obvious answer in BAR's case is... POLITICS.
In my opinion, there is a big possibility of this case being dropped and, in some time, Honda leaving the GPWC and going to FIA's side...

johny · Post 05 May 2005, 12:08

Ferrari isn't in trouble they just put away from the rest of teams, FIA should make stronger and more complete rules to avoid things like that. Now there're two groups ferrari and the rest, so bernie need more friends and his lovely BAR could be the perfect one.

Bar should be punished (being excluded is totaly foolish) but a great fine is needed because Why do we have rules?

johny · Post 05 May 2005, 12:09

Ferrari isn't in trouble they just put away from the rest of teams, FIA should make stronger and more complete rules to avoid things like that. Now there're two groups ferrari and the rest, so bernie need more friends and his lovely BAR could be the perfect one.

Bar should be punished (being excluded is totaly foolish) but a great fine is needed because Why do we have rules? if not it could be the end of that wonderfull "sport"

sandeep · Post 05 May 2005, 14:55

i guess a ban on BAR would mean that 2 out of last years top three teams will have to run a third car . with bar gone its gonna be renault and ferrari .

mark gene and franck montagny would just love this news . i would honestly like to see these guys race but not at BAR's expense.(remember, franck just blew away his opposition in nissan series in 2002 ,like schui did in 2004)

this has been a wretched year for BAR so far . change at top was almost foolish (benefit of hindsight ) maybe honda wanted to show its power!!
and now this adds to their woes.

best of luck bar

jaslfc · Post 05 May 2005, 15:03

no need.. bernie said that if bar is out of the champ... they will have to do with 18 cars. which is fair.. its not easy for teams to run a third car for the race straight away!!. But we dont need to worry coz i doubt bar will be kicked out.. There is so much money in the advertising now days in f1 there will be alot of external pressure from the corporate world..

GuestAgain · Post 05 May 2005, 15:22

Before branding them cheats have a look at this site for more on the hearing:

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns14734.html

Nothing is ever as it seems. I beginning think there is more to this than meets the eye. I am thinking this ie either political or there is some 'sleight of hand' happening on the part of the FIA. ie keep everyone distracted from the real issues (or ask searching questions about some teams performances from imola). Me, I think the latter.

Scuderia_Russ · Post 05 May 2005, 16:09

I don't think it's a conspiracy involving the F.I.A. or anyone else for that matter. The car must be above 600kg's at all times. The scrutineer asked B.A.R. to remove all of the fuel from the tank after Imola G.P. They claimed to have done this but had left fifteen litres in there. This means that they could have run underweight for most of the race before topping the tank(s) back up on the last round of pitstops. This is seriously poor for the image of F1 and in my opinion B.A.R. got off lightly.

dumrick · Post 05 May 2005, 19:44

Sorry Russ, to disagree with you, but is said (and the FIA doesn't deny it) that BAR prooved that the car could not technically run unless the collector was full. You don't have to take out every fluid in the car for scrutineering. I'm sure the engine's oil and water also weight some kilos, that doesn't mean that 1) the team has to take them out for scrutineering 2) the car can run underweight without them! Put simply, it cannot run!

Furthermore, the rules don't specify, in F1, in which conditions these weightings are made. So, the Court ruled a penalty for something that is not even legislated.

I feel there are strong political rasons behind this. FIA new about BAR's collector and, for the first time ever, hoovered the fuel from a car...

Scuderia_Russ · Post 05 May 2005, 19:59

From Autosport-

BAR admitted the collector had not been drained before the car was weighed but said the FIA regulations did not state it should have been.

FIA disagreed with that last point, writing in its dossier: "In designing a fuel system calculated to deceive the scrutineers into thinking the car had been drained of fuel when in fact it had not, the team was guilty of fraudulent conduct."

Looking at everything on the Autosport/Atlas website it looks like both sides have a good argument. We shall see. Nick Fry seems to think that B.A.R. will race on Sunday. I just hope this gets cleared up quickly.