2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[dans79]

And RBR would've left the sport, ruining the sports... and the circle is round again.

And my response to that would be the sport is better off in the long run then!

I had the same response for the past 7 years when Mercedes cheated in 2012 and gained a lot more experience beforehand.

I'm talking about the I'm going to take my ball and go home mentality!

Grow up, and you got the year wrong!

[west52keep64]

So this tax credit thing is just a Red herring.

Thats like me telling someone I've already paid off a loan to them with money I never had or am still waiting to be paid myself.

If I don't have that money, I cannot claim I used it to pay off my loan, can I?

Or to make it easier for everyone to understand.

You can't try to impress a lady by telling her youre a six figure earner because you're waiting to hear back from apple about the engineering job you've applied for.

To make matters worse, given how bad Red Bull seem to be their submissions and complying with rules, it isn't even actually a given that they will receive this credit they've applied for.

Yes the point is, you have to close the books at some point. You can't leave your accounts open indefinitely in the hope a credit will eventually come in.

I'm hearing from a few different sources that Newey was part of the ABA process, and personally approved the penalty. I wonder if that means he felt it was something they could effectively get away with and advised Horner to sign the ABA on that basis?

[f1jcw]

To be honest, I thought the penalty was mild. You're quick to judge... I thought the penalty would be at least 25~50 million euro's and 25% less use of the tunnel/data.
I'm just saying, it's not all black and white. In my opinion the cost cap is a joke that needs to be get rid of sooner than later.
It's the F1, not the F2, F3 or Indy...

And the sport needs to be subjected to a team that has twisted the rules that has helped them win championships.
In any other sport they would be disqualified.

And RBR would've left the sport, ruining the sports... and the circle is round again.

It's the FIA coming up with these non black/white rules.

I've been playing this game a lot longer than you it seems. Maybe go start working for a contractor or subsidiary to gain some experience?

So, if a team has being cheating, let them get away with it if they threaten to leave?
You do understand F1 is supposed to be a sport

As for your last comment. You don’t know who I am, or what I do, it is a pathetic statement and I’d recommend deleting it as it makes you look foolish. Random statements to deflect from cheating doesn’t work.

[ArcticWolfie]

And the sport needs to be subjected to a team that has twisted the rules that has helped them win championships.
In any other sport they would be disqualified.

And RBR would've left the sport, ruining the sports... and the circle is round again.

It's the FIA coming up with these non black/white rules.

I've been playing this game a lot longer than you it seems. Maybe go start working for a contractor or subsidiary to gain some experience?

So, if a team has being cheating, let them get away with it if they threaten to leave?
You do understand F1 is supposed to be a sport

As for your last comment. You don’t know who I am, or what I do, it is a pathetic statement and I’d recommend deleting it as it makes you look foolish. Random statements to deflect from cheating doesn’t work.

I deducted your profession from your replies because you obviously don't know what you're talking about when you keep saying "cheating".

[f1jcw]

And RBR would've left the sport, ruining the sports... and the circle is round again.

It's the FIA coming up with these non black/white rules.

I've been playing this game a lot longer than you it seems. Maybe go start working for a contractor or subsidiary to gain some experience?

So, if a team has being cheating, let them get away with it if they threaten to leave?
You do understand F1 is supposed to be a sport

As for your last comment. You don’t know who I am, or what I do, it is a pathetic statement and I’d recommend deleting it as it makes you look foolish. Random statements to deflect from cheating doesn’t work.

I deducted your profession from your replies because you obviously don't know what you're talking about when you keep saying "cheating".

A sport is run under a set of rules, if a company goes beyond those rules then they have gained an advantage that has being denied every other competitor, especially bad in this case when the offender actually wins.

[f1jcw]

So this tax credit thing is just a Red herring.

Thats like me telling someone I've already paid off a loan to them with money I never had or am still waiting to be paid myself.

If I don't have that money, I cannot claim I used it to pay off my loan, can I?

Or to make it easier for everyone to understand.

You can't try to impress a lady by telling her youre a six figure earner because you're waiting to hear back from apple about the engineering job you've applied for.

To make matters worse, given how bad Red Bull seem to be their submissions and complying with rules, it isn't even actually a given that they will receive this credit they've applied for.

Yes the point is, you have to close the books at some point. You can't leave your accounts open indefinitely in the hope a credit will eventually come in.

I'm hearing from a few different sources that Newey was part of the ABA process, and personally approved the penalty. I wonder if that means he felt it was something they could effectively get away with and advised Horner to sign the ABA on that basis?

Personally I think the other teams should make a statement and refuse to compete against Redbull and not recognise their participation. They need to show some backbone.

[ArcticWolfie]

So, if a team has being cheating, let them get away with it if they threaten to leave?
You do understand F1 is supposed to be a sport

As for your last comment. You don’t know who I am, or what I do, it is a pathetic statement and I’d recommend deleting it as it makes you look foolish. Random statements to deflect from cheating doesn’t work.

I deducted your profession from your replies because you obviously don't know what you're talking about when you keep saying "cheating".

A sport is run under a set of rules, if a company goes beyond those rules then they have gained an advantage that has being denied every other competitor, especially bad in this case when the offender actually wins.

The problem with the current rules are; you can't prove the overspent actually gained an advantage. So it ain't cheating unless the rules are changed.
Only RBR knows, but to be honest that's difficult to measure as well... to what should they offset the gain?

[f1jcw]

I deducted your profession from your replies because you obviously don't know what you're talking about when you keep saying "cheating".

A sport is run under a set of rules, if a company goes beyond those rules then they have gained an advantage that has being denied every other competitor, especially bad in this case when the offender actually wins.

The problem with the current rules are; you can't prove the overspent actually gained an advantage. So it ain't cheating unless the rules are changed.
Only RBR knows, but to be honest that's difficult to measure as well... to what should they offset the gain?

It does not work like that.

Mercs wing was out by 0.2mm caused by damage. That 0.2mm would not have had a sporting advantage but they was still dsq.

So, let Merc spend 10 million over and then turn round and say but it hasn’t made us any faster, you’d be totally fine with that then.

[ArcticWolfie]

A sport is run under a set of rules, if a company goes beyond those rules then they have gained an advantage that has being denied every other competitor, especially bad in this case when the offender actually wins.

The problem with the current rules are; you can't prove the overspent actually gained an advantage. So it ain't cheating unless the rules are changed.
Only RBR knows, but to be honest that's difficult to measure as well... to what should they offset the gain?

It does not work like that.

Mercs wing was out by 0.2mm caused by damage. That 0.2mm would not have had a sporting advantage but they was still dsq.

So, let Merc spend 10 million over and then turn round and say but it hasn’t made us any faster, you’d be totally fine with that then.

The 0.2mm was a hard set rule... the current cap rules are open for interpretation, even when the FIA added an interpretation handbook (even made it more obvious for debate).

They should've hard gapped the financial rules, they didn't, so it's open for debate. It's simple as that. The FIA also ruled a verdict for RBR, so all teams needs to accept that.

That's the problem with the current rules.

[GrizzleBoy]

So this tax credit thing is just a Red herring.

Thats like me telling someone I've already paid off a loan to them with money I never had or am still waiting to be paid myself.

If I don't have that money, I cannot claim I used it to pay off my loan, can I?

Or to make it easier for everyone to understand.

You can't try to impress a lady by telling her youre a six figure earner because you're waiting to hear back from apple about the engineering job you've applied for.

To make matters worse, given how bad Red Bull seem to be their submissions and complying with rules, it isn't even actually a given that they will receive this credit they've applied for.

Yes the point is, you have to close the books at some point. You can't leave your accounts open indefinitely in the hope a credit will eventually come in.

I'm hearing from a few different sources that Newey was part of the ABA process, and personally approved the penalty. I wonder if that means he felt it was something they could effectively get away with and advised Horner to sign the ABA on that basis?

Which actually pisses me off that the FIA have even mentioned it in their ruling in any other capacity other than to show why Red Bulls excuse is utter rubbish.

Not only have the FIA given a piss poor penalty for overspending by about half of a teams total annual development budget, but they've included an excuse for giving such a piss poor penalty by including Red Bulls OWN bullshit excuse in their ruling to take the edge off of it!

To be clear, if you think about it, THE FIA THEMSELVES including Red Bulls red herring/impossible to be plausible excuse in the ruling in a matter of fact fashion instead of a "and this is why that's BS" fashion, it gives THEM an excuse to not actually give any kind of substantial penalty.

[mwillems]

Given that the team were able to bring potentially more updates than they should have last year, and that they still had plenty of wind tunnel and CFD time to do it, just how much of an impact will this 10% be?

They may well get less Wind Tunnel time, but RB will also have to spend within the budget now, so are they really limited and will it change how much they can do over the next 12 months?

[Vanja #66]

Do you really believe all other teams are innocent? Only RBR got caught.

Oh I love this argument

Do you really believe all 9 teams that managed to get inside the cap have the extra funds to pay top-class accountants and lawyers to argue their case? 7 teams can't afford that, only top 3 can.

The fact that Alfa Tauri had no problems at all, even procedural, is proof that Red Bull had to know exactly how to proceed in accordance to agreed accounting procedures. Yes, they got caught.

And they got a shameful non-penalty for that. Ferrari did something wrong (that took FIA a good while to figure out) with engine in 2019 and were penalized for 2.5 years in effect. Were they only ones? No, but they got caught and hit hard and they were nowhere close to fighting for either WDC or WCC in 2019 to begin with.

[dans79]

The problem with the current rules are; you can't prove the overspent actually gained an advantage. So it ain't cheating unless the rules are changed.
Only RBR knows, but to be honest that's difficult to measure as well... to what should they offset the gain?

It doesn't matter what you over spent on, you over spent end of story. All the talk about not gaining an advantage is just spin by Horner and a few others to make the optics not look as bad as they are!

[mwillems]

So this tax credit thing is just a Red herring.

Thats like me telling someone I've already paid off a loan to them with money I never had or am still waiting to be paid myself.

If I don't have that money, I cannot claim I used it to pay off my loan, can I?

Or to make it easier for everyone to understand.

You can't try to impress a lady by telling her youre a six figure earner because you're waiting to hear back from apple about the engineering job you've applied for.

To make matters worse, given how bad Red Bull seem to be their submissions and complying with rules, it isn't even actually a given that they will receive this credit they've applied for.

Yes the point is, you have to close the books at some point. You can't leave your accounts open indefinitely in the hope a credit will eventually come in.

I'm hearing from a few different sources that Newey was part of the ABA process, and personally approved the penalty. I wonder if that means he felt it was something they could effectively get away with and advised Horner to sign the ABA on that basis?

They would have performed an accrual, which is perfectly fine in general, but in this instance the accrual was very unrealistic to say the least. The way the accrual was applied seems to be a mechanism to ensure that if the tax credit came through, it was registered in last years accounts even if the payment came this year. (Accruals are reversed when the actual payment is paid or received, and then another journal is made for the actual transaction, leaving the books balanced but with the initial accounting deduction happening at the point of the initial accrual.

But this is very very basic and I can't see how that could not have been done deliberately as every accountant understands the basis of how these accruals work, they are a totally fundamental part of accounting with common sense rules around them. Leaving this open to the point that the money may not had even been received "yet" was ridiculous and in good accounting the accrual would have been closed at year end.

[ArcticWolfie]

Do you really believe all other teams are innocent? Only RBR got caught.

Oh I love this argument

Do you really believe all 9 teams that managed to get inside the cap have the extra funds to pay top-class accountants and lawyers to argue their case? 7 teams can't afford that, only top 3 can.

The fact that Alfa Tauri had no problems at all, even procedural, is proof that Red Bull had to know exactly how to proceed in accordance to agreed accounting procedures. Yes, they got caught.

And they got a shameful non-penalty for that. Ferrari did something wrong (that took FIA a good while to figure out) with engine in 2019 and were penalized for 2.5 years in effect. Were they only ones? No, but they got caught and hit hard and they were nowhere close to fighting for either WDC or WCC in 2019 to begin with.

I once won a 2 million euro case against the government for my employer, while I'm not even a lawyer (not even close).

I tried to say; the FIA tries so hard, but the rules ain't black/white. You can always try and see where it ends, that's what RBR did.