2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[dans79]

According to online polls, only 8% of fans think penalty was harsh, 12% it was ok and 80% think it was too lenient.

Twitterfandom too tunnel visioned with the 7M fine.

Considering The fine doesn't come out of the budget cap, and just 3 years ago Red Bull had a budget of $335M, a 7m fine for cheating is pretty weak/lenient!
https://www.racefans.net/2020/01/02/the ... ams-spent/

[Juzh]

According to online polls, only 8% of fans think penalty was harsh, 12% it was ok and 80% think it was too lenient.

Twitterfandom too tunnel visioned with the 7M fine.

Considering The fine doesn't come out of the budget cap, and just 3 years ago Red Bull had a budget of $335M

Top 3 are still close to 300 mil once all costs are accounted for.

[Wouter]

According to online polls, only 8% of fans think penalty was harsh, 12% it was ok and 80% think it was too lenient.

.
Twitterfandom too tunnel visioned with the 7M fine.

.
Considering The fine doesn't come out of the budget cap, and just 3 years ago Red Bull had a budget of $335M,
a 7m fine for cheating is pretty weak/lenient!
https://www.racefans.net/2020/01/02/the ... ams-spent/

.
Could you show me the evidence that they cheated and in which area(s)? The FIA indicated they didn't.
You're always so good at finding evidence @Dans79. I mean that seriously. Thanks in advance.

[tpe]

Could you show me the evidence that they cheated and in which area(s)? The FIA indicated they didn't.
You're always so good at finding evidence @Dans79. I mean that seriously. Thanks in advance.

Did Ferrari cheated in 2019 ?

[hollus]

It is page 131. I think we all know what everyone means or does not mean by using or not using the word cheating. Let’s not be disingenuous. It is part of the debate.
So please, stop questioning the word itself. Some people will use it, some people will not. Do not try to censor either.

[dans79]

Could you show me the evidence that they cheated and in which area(s)? The FIA indicated they didn't.
You're always so good at finding evidence @Dans79. I mean that seriously. Thanks in advance.

Let me ask you a question, If someone breaks the rules while playing a game, what do people usually refer to them as?


see the first requirement For an ABA
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... iss.11.pdf

6.31 In order for the Cost Cap Administration to enter into an ABA, the relevant F1 Team must:

(a) acknowledge that it has breached these Financial Regulations;

from the official announcement.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 6.32_1.pdf

An Accepted Breach Agreement (“ABA”) dated 26 October 2022 has been entered into by the Cost Cap
Administration and Red Bull Racing F1 Team (“RBR”) pursuant to Article 6.28 of the FIA Formula 1 Financial
Regulations (“Financial Regulations”).

[DChemTech]

Could you show me the evidence that they cheated and in which area(s)? The FIA indicated they didn't.
You're always so good at finding evidence @Dans79. I mean that seriously. Thanks in advance.

Let me ask you a question, If someone breaks the rules while playing a game, what do people usually refer to them as?


see the first requirement For an ABA
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... iss.11.pdf

6.31 In order for the Cost Cap Administration to enter into an ABA, the relevant F1 Team must:

(a) acknowledge that it has breached these Financial Regulations;

from the official announcement.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 6.32_1.pdf

An Accepted Breach Agreement (“ABA”) dated 26 October 2022 has been entered into by the Cost Cap
Administration and Red Bull Racing F1 Team (“RBR”) pursuant to Article 6.28 of the FIA Formula 1 Financial
Regulations (“Financial Regulations”).

That really does depend on whether they broke the rules due intentionally and maliciously, whether they broke the rules unintentionally due to unfamiliarity with them, broke the rules because the rules were unclearly phrased and there is a difference in interpretation, etcetera.

The oxford dictionary definition is quite clear on the matter: Cheating: act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage. . Hence, breaching rules by accident or by honest difference of interpretation is not cheating. (Sorry Hollus, but the definition does matter).

I agree, a fine of 7M for cheating is mild. But, did RB cheat? That requires knowing something about intent. We don't know - or at least, I don't. And if the breach was incidental or due to interpretation, 7M may just be a fine penalty, or it may be too lenient. That depends on how much impact the breach had (to comment we need more information about itemized spendings of RB, in comparison to other teams - which we don't have and won't get). Was the penalty too mild or not? Impossible to determine with certainty. One can speculate and provide arguments as to why/why not, but there remain gaps in critical knowledge.

Did Ferrari cheat? Same story. I have my suspicions, but in the end it is based on a combination of gossip and assumptions, and I cannot definitively say Ferrari did or did not cheat based on the knowledge that is public.

[Wouter]

Could you show me the evidence that they cheated and in which area(s)? The FIA indicated they didn't.
You're always so good at finding evidence @Dans79. I mean that seriously. Thanks in advance.

Let me ask you a question, If someone breaks the rules while playing a game, what do people usually refer to them as?

.
In my native country, cheating means deliberately cheating, on purpose, intentionally, dishonestly or unfairly .
If you play a game and you are doing something wrong but not deliberately/on purpose/intentionally, unfairly or dishonestly, nobody is calling you a chaeter. They only calling you a bit stupid or ignorant.

[dans79]

Could you show me the evidence that they cheated and in which area(s)? The FIA indicated they didn't.
You're always so good at finding evidence @Dans79. I mean that seriously. Thanks in advance.

Let me ask you a question, If someone breaks the rules while playing a game, what do people usually refer to them as?

.
In my native country, cheating means deliberately cheating, on purpose, intentionally, dishonestly or unfairly .
If you play a game and you are doing something wrong but not deliberately/on purpose/intentionally, unfairly or dishonestly, nobody is calling you a chaeter. They only calling you a bit stupid or ignorant.

Where I'm from it's more black and white. Either you cheated or you didn't. When "professionals" are involved the penalties are usually extreme.

[littlebigcat]

I’ll definitely won’t contribute to this thread again as it brings out the worst of partisan crowds.

I agree. I won't do that anymore too.

[Wouter]

Let me ask you a question, If someone breaks the rules while playing a game, what do people usually refer to them as?

.
In my native country, cheating means deliberately cheating, on purpose, intentionally, dishonestly or unfairly .
If you play a game and you are doing something wrong but not deliberately/on purpose/intentionally, unfairly or dishonestly, nobody is calling you a chaeter. They only calling you a bit stupid or ignorant.

.
Where I'm from it's more black and white. Either you cheated or you didn't. When "professionals" are involved the penalties are usually extreme.

.
Then you come from a different country than where the FIA ​​is based because they have said in their statement:
.

... that there is no accusation or evidence that RBR has sought at any time to act in bad faith, dishonestly or in fraudulent manner,
nor has it willingly concealed any information from the Cost Cap Administration.

I don't see the word "Cheating". I actually read the opposite.

Thanks again for providing us with that link last week

https://www.fia.com/news/accepted-breac ... ormula-one.

[langedweil]

Considering The fine doesn't come out of the budget cap, and just 3 years ago Red Bull had a budget of $335M, a 7m fine for cheating is pretty weak/lenient!
https://www.racefans.net/2020/01/02/the ... ams-spent/

The whole cheating perception remains wild, as the regulations themselves gave space to it by marking a <5% overspend as no more than a minor breach and an according punishment. All teams (especially the ones that used to have overall bigger budgets before the cap) could have easily gone exactly that same route, but just chose to not do so. Most likely that was mainly caused by the uncertainty of the actual punishment from a risk-mitigation perspective, but still it was an option equally open for any team and fully within the regulations.
The main reason for it to happen was simply a poor set of boundaries; well, poor might be too harsh, let's say not tight enough.

[MadMax]

Considering The fine doesn't come out of the budget cap, and just 3 years ago Red Bull had a budget of $335M, a 7m fine for cheating is pretty weak/lenient!
https://www.racefans.net/2020/01/02/the ... ams-spent/

The whole cheating perception remains wild, as the regulations themselves gave space to it by marking a <5% overspend as no more than a minor breach and an according punishment. All teams (especially the ones that used to have overall bigger budgets before the cap) could have easily gone exactly that same route, but just chose to not do so. Most likely that was mainly caused by the uncertainty of the actual punishment from a risk-mitigation perspective, but still it was an option equally open for any team and fully within the regulations.
The main reason for it to happen was simply a poor set of boundaries; well, poor might be too harsh, let's say not tight enough.

The reason other teams didn't go over the budget cap was because it was specifically against the rules irrespective of the punishment not being clear. It wasn't a loophole or grey area, it was a straight up "go over this figure and you're guilty of breaching the cap". The FIA was there to be asked for confirmation of what should/shouldn't be included (again, the rules specifically say that teams should ask) so there was no excuse for getting it wrong.

The reason one team did get it wrong are open to speculation and ranges from simple incompetence all the way to deliberate cheating. There could have been a bit of hubris in there, perhaps, that the team "knew" their interpretation was correct without them checking.

But the reason it happened is not because the rules "allow" it to happen. The team made a decision to take a particular course of action and that course of action put them in breach.

[f1jcw]

Considering The fine doesn't come out of the budget cap, and just 3 years ago Red Bull had a budget of $335M, a 7m fine for cheating is pretty weak/lenient!
https://www.racefans.net/2020/01/02/the ... ams-spent/

The whole cheating perception remains wild, as the regulations themselves gave space to it by marking a <5% overspend as no more than a minor breach and an according punishment. All teams (especially the ones that used to have overall bigger budgets before the cap) could have easily gone exactly that same route, but just chose to not do so. Most likely that was mainly caused by the uncertainty of the actual punishment from a risk-mitigation perspective, but still it was an option equally open for any team and fully within the regulations.
The main reason for it to happen was simply a poor set of boundaries; well, poor might be too harsh, let's say not tight enough.

The reason other teams didn't go over the budget cap was because it was specifically against the rules irrespective of the punishment not being clear. It wasn't a loophole or grey area, it was a straight up "go over this figure and you're guilty of breaching the cap". The FIA was there to be asked for confirmation of what should/shouldn't be included (again, the rules specifically say that teams should ask) so there was no excuse for getting it wrong.

The reason one team did get it wrong are open to speculation and ranges from simple incompetence all the way to deliberate cheating. There could have been a bit of hubris in there, perhaps, that the team "knew" their interpretation was correct without them checking.

But the reason it happened is not because the rules "allow" it to happen. The team made a decision to take a particular course of action and that course of action put them in breach.

It begs the question, out of all teams, why did Redbull decide not to do a dry run.


As to if they have cheated or not, this is FIA we are talking about who always try to put a positive spin on events (excluding Max Mosley) they do not like to drag F1 through the mud even thought it is currently at its lowest it has been for decades.

[dans79]

Then you come from a different country than where the FIA ​​is based because they have said in their statement:

I do come from a different country I don't live in France or switzerland, but that's not really consequential.

I'm not aware of the FIA ever using the word cheating. Even for blatantly obvious cases of it like crashgate, they just claimed the team had "breached" a rule. The FIA is a party with a "vested interest", because it's revenue is directly tied to F1. Hence why we have seen so many closed door deals in the past!