How useless is sky sports f1

[MadMax]

Well when you have 2 teams Ferrari and Merc making slanderous unconfirmed comments towards RedBull then yeah....I think that falls under slander.

The only one I remember making doggy do up, is the man claiming RB didn’t break the budget cap

So you didnt have Mercedes and Ferrari team principles coming out making accusations towards Red Bull BEFORE the FIA announced the outcome of the findings then?

Im sorry, but anything defamatory towards someone else without having the evidence to back it up is slander.

If you didnt have the facts to back up your claims, then how else did they:
a) get hold of the information to support those claims
b) knows that RB had overspent the cost cap?

You can bet your house on the two team principals having evidence to back up their claims. They aren't stupid - they know that making such claims without evidence is liable to get them in trouble.

[MadMax]

Who slandered Horner?

Well when you have 2 teams Ferrari and Merc making slanderous unconfirmed comments towards RedBull then yeah....I think that falls under slander.

An accusation of breaking the rules is not, of itself, slander. A false statement can be slanderous. A truthful one can't. Mercedes and Ferrari claimed that they had evidence that a team had breached the cost cap. That was truthful in so much as they had evidence. Ergo, not slanderous.

[f1jcw]

The only one I remember making doggy do up, is the man claiming RB didn’t break the budget cap

So you didnt have Mercedes and Ferrari team principles coming out making accusations towards Red Bull BEFORE the FIA announced the outcome of the findings then?

Im sorry, but anything defamatory towards someone else without having the evidence to back it up is slander.

If you didnt have the facts to back up your claims, then how else did they:
a) get hold of the information to support those claims
b) knows that RB had overspent the cost cap?

Who cares? it was true.

I don't remember this reaction from the MV crowd when he told the media that Ferrari were cheating before anything came out of the findings, do you?

the camp this noise is coming from in the paddock are extremely hypocritical. People that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I find it perturbing that the establishment/forums/journalists seems to be closing ranks, you must not mention that Redbull broke the spending cap, even worse it seems now they are not guilty, they are actually getting bullied and are really the victims in all this.
These people need to be reminded that F1 is a "sport" and we have just seen a contest that the winner has had a unequal playing field in 2 seasons.
I’m gobsmacked they are getting away with it so lightly in punishment and articles in F1 news and the ones that are in danger of not letting it drop are being threatened.

[mwillems]

To give some context, a sport where ten teams spend 1.4 billion dollars in the budget cap and probably closer to 2 billion dollars per year to win a trophy.

So yes, if you win in a manner that is outside the agreed rules - twice, it generates Ill feeling.

If their lead driver will be as dangerous as he likes to win at all costs then its the icing on the cake.

[DChemTech]

So you didnt have Mercedes and Ferrari team principles coming out making accusations towards Red Bull BEFORE the FIA announced the outcome of the findings then?

Im sorry, but anything defamatory towards someone else without having the evidence to back it up is slander.

If you didnt have the facts to back up your claims, then how else did they:
a) get hold of the information to support those claims
b) knows that RB had overspent the cost cap?

Who cares? it was true.

I don't remember this reaction from the MV crowd when he told the media that Ferrari were cheating before anything came out of the findings, do you?

the camp this noise is coming from in the paddock are extremely hypocritical. People that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

These people need to be reminded that F1 is a "sport" and we have just seen a contest that the winner has had a unequal playing field in 2 seasons.
I’m gobsmacked they are getting away with it so lightly in punishment and articles in F1 news and the ones that are in danger of not letting it drop are being threatened.

Up until now, the playing field has always been unequal. It has always been a pay-to-win competition.
Probably the last two seasons were the most equal with the cost cap in place, even with minor breaches.
And nobody is saying that you cannot mention RB broke the cap - I think it is broadly acknowledged they did. What is being disputed is claims that they cheated (because cheating has a specific meaning of malicious intent), and what is being debated is how much impact this breach actually had and whether the penalty is fair, which are fair discussion points. I don't see at all that people are not allowed to say that RB cheated. Quite the opposite, what I see on the forum are mostly people that already decided it was cheating, and that are heavily opposed towards any attempts of nuancing on that point.

[chrisc90]

The 3 that quoted me seem to forget at the point when the claims were being made there was no evidence. (Before the FIA released its findings and when the comments in discussion were made)

[hollus]

The evidence was likely there. It hadn’t reached us plebs yet, but for some in the paddock it already existed from “internal sources”.
With the information we had, there was no evidence, but our intel sucked. With the intel they had, the evidence was already there.

[chrisc90]

The evidence was likely there. It hadn’t reached us plebs yet, but for some in the paddock it already existed from “internal sources”.
With the information we had, there was no evidence, but our intel sucked. With the intel they had, the evidence was already there.

I still fail to see how such information got out, even into the inner F1 circles.
So it was either leaked from inside the FIA or the teams speculated on the findings. More than likely the first.
But, since none of the teams knew the results until the Wednesday, and the comments were made the previous week… it’s defamatory. Doesn’t bode well for a confidential process really does it.

Probably a bit off topic this discussion given the thread title.

[henry]

Who cares? it was true.

I don't remember this reaction from the MV crowd when he told the media that Ferrari were cheating before anything came out of the findings, do you?

the camp this noise is coming from in the paddock are extremely hypocritical. People that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

These people need to be reminded that F1 is a "sport" and we have just seen a contest that the winner has had a unequal playing field in 2 seasons.
I’m gobsmacked they are getting away with it so lightly in punishment and articles in F1 news and the ones that are in danger of not letting it drop are being threatened.

Up until now, the playing field has always been unequal. It has always been a pay-to-win competition.
Probably the last two seasons were the most equal with the cost cap in place, even with minor breaches.
And nobody is saying that you cannot mention RB broke the cap - I think it is broadly acknowledged they did. What is being disputed is claims that they cheated (because cheating has a specific meaning of malicious intent), and what is being debated is how much impact this breach actually had and whether the penalty is fair, which are fair discussion points. I don't see at all that people are not allowed to say that RB cheated. Quite the opposite, what I see on the forum are mostly people that already decided it was cheating, and that are heavily opposed towards any attempts of nuancing on that point.

Since you want to nuance.

There are more ways than one to cheat. If you are supposed to comply with a set of rules, and you deliberately choose not to understand them, you might be accused of cheating if you break one of those understandings.

[DChemTech]

These people need to be reminded that F1 is a "sport" and we have just seen a contest that the winner has had a unequal playing field in 2 seasons.
I’m gobsmacked they are getting away with it so lightly in punishment and articles in F1 news and the ones that are in danger of not letting it drop are being threatened.

Up until now, the playing field has always been unequal. It has always been a pay-to-win competition.
Probably the last two seasons were the most equal with the cost cap in place, even with minor breaches.
And nobody is saying that you cannot mention RB broke the cap - I think it is broadly acknowledged they did. What is being disputed is claims that they cheated (because cheating has a specific meaning of malicious intent), and what is being debated is how much impact this breach actually had and whether the penalty is fair, which are fair discussion points. I don't see at all that people are not allowed to say that RB cheated. Quite the opposite, what I see on the forum are mostly people that already decided it was cheating, and that are heavily opposed towards any attempts of nuancing on that point.

Since you want to nuance.

There are more ways than one to cheat. If you are supposed to comply with a set of rules, and you deliberately choose not to understand them, you might be accused of cheating if you break one of those understandings.

The way I interpret it, deliberately 'choosing not to understand' (or more accurately, deliberately misinterpreting) them is an intentional malicious action and hence would fit the dictionary definition of cheating. I also see no problems with accusations of cheating - that's a fine topic for discussion. The problem is commenters that decisively state that RB cheated and accept no nuance or counterpoint to that, be it on a forum or be it in the media.

[henry]

The way I interpret it, deliberately 'choosing not to understand' (or more accurately, deliberately misinterpreting) them is an intentional malicious action and hence would fit the dictionary definition of cheating. I also see no problems with accusations of cheating - that's a fine topic for discussion. The problem is commenters that decisively state that RB cheated and accept no nuance or counterpoint to that, be it on a forum or be it in the media.

On reflection I have to agree. There are several interpretations of the publicly available facts and which anyone chooses can depend on assumptions about things other than the facts themselves. It will come down to what assumptions get considered and the weight one attaches to them, basically our biases. Obviously if I assume the FIA are incompetent fools then I will come to a very different conclusion than if I assume RB habitually break rules.

Thanks for the correction of my misuse of “misunderstanding”. I was trying to generalise but it turns out I’m a slovenly native user.

[littlebigcat]

The evidence was likely there. It hadn’t reached us plebs yet, but for some in the paddock it already existed from “internal sources”.
With the information we had, there was no evidence, but our intel sucked. With the intel they had, the evidence was already there.

I still fail to see how such information got out, even into the inner F1 circles.
So it was either leaked from inside the FIA or the teams speculated on the findings. More than likely the first.
But, since none of the teams knew the results until the Wednesday, and the comments were made the previous week… it’s defamatory. Doesn’t bode well for a confidential process really does it.

Probably a bit off topic this discussion given the thread title.

Have Red Bull Racing been harmed by the accusations? No because they did what they were accused of.

[johnny comelately]

Oh dear...

[MadMax]

The evidence was likely there. It hadn’t reached us plebs yet, but for some in the paddock it already existed from “internal sources”.
With the information we had, there was no evidence, but our intel sucked. With the intel they had, the evidence was already there.

I still fail to see how such information got out, even into the inner F1 circles.
So it was either leaked from inside the FIA or the teams speculated on the findings. More than likely the first.
But, since none of the teams knew the results until the Wednesday, and the comments were made the previous week… it’s defamatory. Doesn’t bode well for a confidential process really does it.

Probably a bit off topic this discussion given the thread title.

The info most likely got out because people move teams, people have friends in other teams because they've previously worked together, etc., and people talk to each other. Blaming the FIA is just a way of trying to suggest that Toto has an insider passing him information about other teams. Funny thing is, if that's the suggestion and made without any evidence of such dealings, that is actually slanderous. That's the thing - if you have evidence then it's not slander. If you don't, then it is.

As for defamation, it's for Red Bull to decide if they want to take it to court. They made noises about doing so but didn't progress it because, quite simply, they were guilty of a breach of the cost cap and they knew it. That they managed to get the FIA to not punish them too severely is testament to their negotiation skills.

[hollus]

The cost cap thread is re-opened. Sky here.