2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[chrisc90]

Just being able to keep it on the 1.22.xx for pretty much the entire race, MV's level of consistency and superb tire preservation.

When I think that lap times differ from each other just in miliseconds with whole laps and many turns... It is like a robot.

The top drivers can do that, it's one of the skills that makes them top drivers. We've seen it from some others on the grid over the years.

Any examples of that?

I mean we talking 40 laps on a tyre that’s degrading and lasting much longer than predicted

[Wouter]

The top drivers can do that, it's one of the skills that makes them top drivers.
We've seen it from some others on the grid over the years.

.
Could you put those statistics / overviews here, >40 rounds on the same tire? Thank you.

[Curbstone]

I really don't think it will affect them to be honest. They will just adapt to be more precise and refined in their designs before they put them into the tunnel.

I don't believe they can just refine their designs before they test them in the windtunnel. The windtunnel is just one of the tools to verify whether a design change results in the expected outcome. If you put a less refined model in the windtunnel, the outcome is also less refined which means the comparison with f.e. the CFD is inaccurate, resulting in an inaccurate outcome. Wind tunnel models will always be as refined as required.

The 5 % steps in windtunnel time for the highest ranked constructors is initiated because it has a significant effect.
But another 7% reduction will hardly have any effect?

And also, where does the budget or time for the extra refinement come from? CFD time is also limited, so the engineers just have to use their CFD-eyes and -mind in their spare time?

[Stu]

It would be possibly to ‘hand-calc’ further into the process, before committing to a test, I would be surprised if they don’t already have that in place.
Coupled with really understanding how the flow works (experience is a great teacher) gets you further up the ladder.

[chrisc90]

Yeah, they will just be more precise on the designs.

It’s a bit like reverse really, give a man more time to validate his runs, he will just make more revisions without putting as much effort into them as he can play with the results until he gets them right. With less time he will likely put greater time and thought into the designs before running them to verify.

As someone else said the other week, Williams/haas aren’t at the forefront of the grid because they have the most time

[AR3-GP]

I really don't think it will affect them to be honest. They will just adapt to be more precise and refined in their designs before they put them into the tunnel.

I don't believe they can just refine their designs before they test them in the windtunnel. The windtunnel is just one of the tools to verify whether a design change results in the expected outcome. If you put a less refined model in the windtunnel, the outcome is also less refined which means the comparison with f.e. the CFD is inaccurate, resulting in an inaccurate outcome. Wind tunnel models will always be as refined as required.

The 5 % steps in windtunnel time for the highest ranked constructors is initiated because it has a significant effect.
But another 7% reduction will hardly have any effect?

And also, where does the budget or time for the extra refinement come from? CFD time is also limited, so the engineers just have to use their CFD-eyes and -mind in their spare time?

RB have a group of aerodynamicists who are each responsible for a certain amount of the WT and CFD allocation each week. What does this reduction in WT look like for them? Well there are two options.

1) You apply an across-the-board reduction in the number of aero schemes that you allow each aero to put in the tunnel (so instead of 4 options for a bargeboard, the aero can only make 3 options). The aerodynamicist adapts. Originally you wanted to test Y=250, Y=270, Y = 290, Y = 320 tips, instead you divide up the space into 3.

2) Alternatively, you decide that certain areas of the car are more valuable than others so you maintain a high throughput of test parts on areas like the floor, while cutting back on schemes related to areas which provide much smaller returns like rear wings.


The development reduction 100% impacts how they will operate but I think it's only going to be relative to Mercedes and Ferrari where we see any impact at all. Haas has had miles more aero time than anyone else, and yet they seem to be falling backwards. It doesn't matter how much WT and CFD time you have. have you heard the saying "put crap in, get crap out"? As it turns out, a lot of the F1 teams suffer from this.

[AR3-GP]

Yeah, they will just be more precise on the designs.

It’s a bit like reverse really, give a man more time to validate his runs, he will just make more revisions without putting as much effort into them as he can play with the results until he gets them right. With less time he will likely put greater time and thought into the designs before running them to verify.

As someone else said the other week, Williams/haas aren’t at the forefront of the grid because they have the most time

Bingo.

[MadMax]

The top drivers can do that, it's one of the skills that makes them top drivers.
We've seen it from some others on the grid over the years.

.
Could you put those statistics / overviews here, >40 rounds on the same tire? Thank you.

2016 Mexico. Hamilton pitted on lap 17 and then did the rest of the race on the same tyre. That's 54 laps doing basically the same lap time the whole way.

Lap Time
1 1:38.829
2 2:01.377
3 1:59.340
4 1:23.397
5 1:23.045
6 1:23.249
7 1:23.341
8 1:23.394
9 1:23.517
10 1:23.365
11 1:23.411
12 1:23.380
13 1:23.458
14 1:23.369
15 1:23.380
16 1:23.376
17 1:26.713
18 1:41.746
19 1:22.993
20 1:23.544
21 1:24.178
22 1:24.011
23 1:23.464
24 1:23.679
25 1:23.894
26 1:23.578
27 1:23.994
28 1:23.826
29 1:23.821
30 1:23.865
31 1:24.277
32 1:23.746
33 1:23.633
34 1:23.702
35 1:23.525
36 1:23.174
37 1:23.113
38 1:24.150
39 1:23.185
40 1:23.529
41 1:23.657
42 1:23.677
43 1:23.132
44 1:22.871
45 1:23.579
46 1:23.663
47 1:23.649
48 1:23.123
49 1:23.846
50 1:22.780
51 1:22.931
52 1:23.599
53 1:23.020
54 1:23.292
55 1:23.051
56 1:22.812
57 1:23.185
58 1:23.316
59 1:23.006
60 1:22.864
61 1:23.278
62 1:22.826
63 1:22.874
64 1:22.814
65 1:22.633
66 1:22.596
67 1:23.243
68 1:22.898
69 1:22.942
70 1:23.459
71 1:24.218

[etusch]

The top drivers can do that, it's one of the skills that makes them top drivers.
We've seen it from some others on the grid over the years.

.
Could you put those statistics / overviews here, >40 rounds on the same tire? Thank you.

2016 Mexico. Hamilton pitted on lap 17 and then did the rest of the race on the same tyre. That's 54 laps doing basically the same lap time the whole way.

Lap Time
1 1:38.829
2 2:01.377
3 1:59.340
4 1:23.397
5 1:23.045
6 1:23.249
7 1:23.341
8 1:23.394
9 1:23.517
10 1:23.365
11 1:23.411
12 1:23.380
13 1:23.458
14 1:23.369
15 1:23.380
16 1:23.376
17 1:26.713
18 1:41.746
19 1:22.993
20 1:23.544
21 1:24.178
22 1:24.011
23 1:23.464
24 1:23.679
25 1:23.894
26 1:23.578
27 1:23.994
28 1:23.826
29 1:23.821
30 1:23.865
31 1:24.277
32 1:23.746
33 1:23.633
34 1:23.702
35 1:23.525
36 1:23.174
37 1:23.113
38 1:24.150
39 1:23.185
40 1:23.529
41 1:23.657
42 1:23.677
43 1:23.132
44 1:22.871
45 1:23.579
46 1:23.663
47 1:23.649
48 1:23.123
49 1:23.846
50 1:22.780
51 1:22.931
52 1:23.599
53 1:23.020
54 1:23.292
55 1:23.051
56 1:22.812
57 1:23.185
58 1:23.316
59 1:23.006
60 1:22.864
61 1:23.278
62 1:22.826
63 1:22.874
64 1:22.814
65 1:22.633
66 1:22.596
67 1:23.243
68 1:22.898
69 1:22.942
70 1:23.459
71 1:24.218

Isn't these times at wider range compared to Verstappen 's times ?

[MadMax]

Isn't these times at wider range compared to Verstappen 's times ?

The cars were much more susceptible to issues when within a few seconds of other cars and the Mercs were generally lapping a long field back then. This year the cars are closer together and, of course, are less hampered when following so lap times are inherently less affected when lapping other cars.

[organic]

Isn't these times at wider range compared to Verstappen 's times ?

The cars were much more susceptible to issues when within a few seconds of other cars and the Mercs were generally lapping a long field back then. This year the cars are closer together and, of course, are less hampered when following so lap times are inherently less affected when lapping other cars.

Max lapped up to 6th place at Mexico so not dissimilar to how many cars Merc would lap in earlier seasons, surely? He had to get past a ton of blue flags, and they weren't letting him past easily frankly since many of them were battling amongst one another.

[MadMax]

Isn't these times at wider range compared to Verstappen 's times ?

The cars were much more susceptible to issues when within a few seconds of other cars and the Mercs were generally lapping a long field back then. This year the cars are closer together and, of course, are less hampered when following so lap times are inherently less affected when lapping other cars.

Max lapped up to 6th place at Mexico so not dissimilar to how many cars Merc would lap in earlier seasons, surely?

Yes, but the cars today can follow on each other's gearboxes. In 2016 they couldn't so lapping wasn't quite as simple as cruising up and popping past like it was this year as they inherently lost lap time whilst closing on the car to be lapped.

[organic]

The cars were much more susceptible to issues when within a few seconds of other cars and the Mercs were generally lapping a long field back then. This year the cars are closer together and, of course, are less hampered when following so lap times are inherently less affected when lapping other cars.

Max lapped up to 6th place at Mexico so not dissimilar to how many cars Merc would lap in earlier seasons, surely?

Yes, but the cars today can follow on each other's gearboxes. In 2016 they couldn't so lapping wasn't quite as simple as cruising up and popping past like it was this year as they inherently lost lap time whilst closing on the car to be lapped.

And Brazil is far, far easier to follow/overtake compared to Mexico. Average overtakes at Brazil were over 60 per year prior to the new aero regulations which "allow" following. Mexico there were about 30 as a result of cooling being an issue when following, even with the new aero regs. Surely then it's possible that it's easier to pass backmarkers too at Brazil? So, these purely qualitative arguments can be made easily both ways.

[MadMax]

Max lapped up to 6th place at Mexico so not dissimilar to how many cars Merc would lap in earlier seasons, surely?

Yes, but the cars today can follow on each other's gearboxes. In 2016 they couldn't so lapping wasn't quite as simple as cruising up and popping past like it was this year as they inherently lost lap time whilst closing on the car to be lapped.

And Brazil is far, far easier to follow/overtake compared to Mexico. Average overtakes at Brazil were over 60 per year prior to the new aero regulations which "allow" following. Mexico there were about 30 as a result of cooling being an issue when following, even with the new aero regs. Surely then it's possible that it's easier to pass backmarkers too at Brazil? So, these purely qualitative arguments can be made easily both ways.

What's Brazil got to do with it? The lap times are both in Mexico.

[organic]

Yes, but the cars today can follow on each other's gearboxes. In 2016 they couldn't so lapping wasn't quite as simple as cruising up and popping past like it was this year as they inherently lost lap time whilst closing on the car to be lapped.

And Brazil is far, far easier to follow/overtake compared to Mexico. Average overtakes at Brazil were over 60 per year prior to the new aero regulations which "allow" following. Mexico there were about 30 as a result of cooling being an issue when following, even with the new aero regs. Surely then it's possible that it's easier to pass backmarkers too at Brazil? So, these purely qualitative arguments can be made easily both ways.

What's Brazil got to do with it? The lap times are both in Mexico.

Ahh I read that it was 2016 Mexico. Regardless, the new regs in Mexico didn't improve the amount of overtaking. The 30ish overtakes is in line with, if not below, previous years. 2016 was also better than 2017-21 in terms of following.

My point was that we can make arbitrary arguments like this, but both of them were faced with blue flags overtaking at a track that isn't easy. Max's laptimes are remarkably consistent, and the data provided doesn't have as little variance so it's less interesting. Too many factors to consider why Ham's laptimes are deviating, unless the outliers can be matched up to onboards of Ham having to overtake backmarkers on those laps.

ever since Max entered the sport his ability to metronomically put in laptimes has been praised. His free practice longrun data shows it week in, week out. So I'm not surprised to see him able to do this and not many others to have also