2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[cplchanb]

ham was ahead when he was turning in and is entitled to the racing line. max essentially dive bombed into the corner just like AD last year. he cant expect to be given an auto space just for divebombs.

[AR3-GP]

Apparently george had a water leak:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/russe ... /10399590/

I wonder if he will need a new engine next weekend?

[AR3-GP]

George has also sealed up the WDC win over Hamilton. With the 25 point gap between them heading into the last round, Hamilton would have to win, and/or take fastest lap to beat George while George would have to DNF. Neither of those outcomes seem likely.

[algebraist]

George has also sealed up the WDC win over Hamilton. With the 25 point gap between them heading into the last round, Hamilton would have to win, and/or take fastest lap to beat George while George would have to DNF. Neither of those outcomes seem likely.

Considering it's on record that Hamilton was effectively doing setup testing to help develop the car, then went back on usual race strategy stuff six months into the season then any comparison between him and Russell is false.

Next year is where it's at.

[AR3-GP]

George has also sealed up the WDC win over Hamilton. With the 25 point gap between them heading into the last round, Hamilton would have to win, and/or take fastest lap to beat George while George would have to DNF. Neither of those outcomes seem likely.

Considering it's on record that Hamilton was effectively doing setup testing to help develop the car, then went back on usual race strategy stuff six months into the season then any comparison between him and Russell is false.

Next year is where it's at.

Don't get me wrong. To my eye, Hamilton still has it and if you put a gun to my head and I am Toto Wolff and F1 teams are only allowed 1 car I would run car #44 w/ Mercedes.

I'm just pointing out the points situation. It's an observation. George has sealed it. What one interprets from this situation can be something else entirely.

[chrisc90]

It will be interesting to see how the new floor regs affect Mercedes come 2023.

[zubster]

So what do you think has allowed them to be competitive now? That upgrade in Austin was not that big, how have they clawed the gap. Perhaps its more that red bull had a bad setup and are still dominant

[chrisc90]

So what do you think has allowed them to be competitive now? That upgrade in Austin was not that big, how have they clawed the gap. Perhaps its more that red bull had a bad setup and are still dominant

Ferrari got hampered by TD039 and likely running engines a bit lower than usual, RB havent developed the car for about 3-4 races now and they had a poor setup which ate the medium tyre. Come next week in AD, itll be business as usual id suspect.

Merc got the setup spot on this weekend.

[pursue_one's]

So what do you think has allowed them to be competitive now? That upgrade in Austin was not that big, how have they clawed the gap. Perhaps its more that red bull had a bad setup and are still dominant

Source: SkySports F1 Ted's Notebook

[chrisc90]

The Brazil engines I presume then. Wind them up to the max

[AR3-GP]

Whilst altitude has helped them reduce the drag deficit, it seems clear that Mercedes are getting a genuine handle on their concept and car.

With the chance to eradicate flaws via next years design, perhaps they can indeed fight Red Bull.

We need it to be closer at the front for sure - today was a very good reward for Merc hard work- congratulations to the team.

Indeed. I think the development on the W13 will pay huge dividends on next year’s car.

It's possible but I would be cautious. On the surface, the W13 has performed in exactly the same manner as the RB14 and the RB15. Cars that were extremely proficient in uncanny circuits like Austria, Singapore, Mexico, Brazil but there were not enough of these circuit types to mount anything close to a full season challenge.

I understand a lot of people have been starving for a Mercedes victory, but it feels like people don't know how to interpret Merc's current run of form because they are basically used to Merc having their way for the last 8 years or so.

Put yourself in the shoes of a Mclaren fan when they nearly won 2 races last year and bagged some poles as well. Or when RB was winning the altitude tracks in 2018 and 2019 and look at how fans react to those results and compare it to people prophesizing that Merc are back after a day like today.

[Hammerfist]

So what do you think has allowed them to be competitive now? That upgrade in Austin was not that big, how have they clawed the gap. Perhaps its more that red bull had a bad setup and are still dominant

Imo the types of venues they last raced at are the main explanation. Mexico at super high altitude and then brazil at mid level altitude. Then of course rbr didnt find a good setup this weekend. We also saw the same thing on Austria when they were munching through tires and ferrari was much quicker. I dont think the sprint format suits them very much. Thats 2 sprint weekends they have underperformed. Not enough free practice time to sort out issues i guess.
But I expect rbr to be quite a long way ahead in AD. If Merc can qualify wthin 0.5sec that would be a win in my book. But we shall see.

[zibby43]

Whilst altitude has helped them reduce the drag deficit, it seems clear that Mercedes are getting a genuine handle on their concept and car.

With the chance to eradicate flaws via next years design, perhaps they can indeed fight Red Bull.

We need it to be closer at the front for sure - today was a very good reward for Merc hard work- congratulations to the team.

Indeed. I think the development on the W13 will pay huge dividends on next year’s car.

It's possible but I would be cautious. On the surface, the W13 has performed in exactly the same manner as the RB14 and the RB15. Cars that were extremely proficient in uncanny circuits like Austria, Singapore, Mexico, Brazil but there were not enough of these circuit types to mount anything close to a full season challenge.

I understand a lot of people have been starving for a Mercedes victory, but it feels like people don't know how to interpret Merc's current run of form because they are basically used to Merc having their way for the last 8 years or so.

Put yourself in the shoes of a Mclaren fan when they nearly won 2 races last year and bagged some poles as well. Or when RB was winning the altitude tracks in 2018 and 2019 and look at how fans react to those results and compare it to people prophesizing that Merc are back after a day like today.

Not really. I’m specifically referencing the clear performance gains since the Austin upgrade. Pretty much the first substantial performance upgrade of the season that wasn’t brought to fix an underlying fundamental flaw, but purely to make the car faster (with some weight reduction to boot).

This wasn’t some McLaren outlier win because of a crazy race. This has been a clear trend.

Ferrari and Red Bull have publicly acknowledged it as well. I don’t know why we have to always invent some sort of mental gymnastics to make something more difficult to interpret than it really is.

The RB remains the best overall package, but now Merc can compete in races with the additional pace and superior degradation. Mexico and Brazil are very different circuits, and Merc performed well at both venues.

[AR3-GP]

Indeed. I think the development on the W13 will pay huge dividends on next year’s car.

It's possible but I would be cautious. On the surface, the W13 has performed in exactly the same manner as the RB14 and the RB15. Cars that were extremely proficient in uncanny circuits like Austria, Singapore, Mexico, Brazil but there were not enough of these circuit types to mount anything close to a full season challenge.

I understand a lot of people have been starving for a Mercedes victory, but it feels like people don't know how to interpret Merc's current run of form because they are basically used to Merc having their way for the last 8 years or so.

Put yourself in the shoes of a Mclaren fan when they nearly won 2 races last year and bagged some poles as well. Or when RB was winning the altitude tracks in 2018 and 2019 and look at how fans react to those results and compare it to people prophesizing that Merc are back after a day like today.

Not really. I’m specifically referencing the clear performance gains since the Austin upgrade. Pretty much the first substantial performance upgrade of the season that wasn’t brought to fix an underlying fundamental flaw, but purely to make the car faster (with some weight reduction to boot).

This wasn’t some McLaren outlier win because of a crazy race. This has been a clear trend.

Ferrari and Red Bull have publicly acknowledged it as well. I don’t know why we have to always invent some sort of mental gymnastics to make something more difficult to interpret than it really is.

The RBR remains the best overall package, but now Merc can compete in races with the additional pace and superior degradation. Mexico and Brazil are very different circuits, and Merc performed well at both venues.

Mexico and Brazil are the same circuits that the RB14 and the RB15 excelled at. Those cars were never close to full season competitiveness. These aren't gymnastics.

Ferrari canned their '22 car in France. RB moved on in Spa. Naturally, Mercedes who is working with 10% more windtunnel time than RB and 5% more time than Ferrari, in addition to throwing on a 3-4 tenths upgrade package in Austin where RB and Ferrari remain with their midseason cars, then it looks like Mercedes are closing down gaps but its far more complex than that. Even today, RB was shafted by the limited free practice time. This performance that we saw today in Brazil is the same performance from Austria. Hamilton was very fast there. Had he not had the qualy crash, he would have been fighting Verstappen in a similar fashion because once again there are some circuits where the RB just doesn't work at all.

Ultimately we don't really know "what" the perspective for this Mercedes performance is until the first couple of rounds next season. That will show whether the current gains are real or if it was all a mirage based in the fact that RB and Ferrari moved on to their '23 package months before Mercedes did.

There would have been absolutely enormous pressure from Germany to win a race this season. It's now done thanks to the Austin upgrade. Mercedes are operating on a completely different run plan because they lost 8 to 10 months according to Toto finding out their porpoising issues. He said that here: https://www.formulanerds.com/news/toto- ... velopment/ The reality is they are likely still 8 to 10 months behind in the development for '23 car as well. One does not erase an 8 to 10 months development gap at the snap of a finger. These things are very complex. Teams develop at similar rates, when one team is making leaps relative to the others, it typically means the other teams are banking this performance in a different domain (i.e 2023). It's quite naive to think RB and Ferrari were just holding their nether regions while Mercedes "caught" them. One must get out of the habit of aggrandizing the development ability of 1 F1 team vs another when it comes to the big 3.

[zibby43]

It's possible but I would be cautious. On the surface, the W13 has performed in exactly the same manner as the RB14 and the RB15. Cars that were extremely proficient in uncanny circuits like Austria, Singapore, Mexico, Brazil but there were not enough of these circuit types to mount anything close to a full season challenge.

I understand a lot of people have been starving for a Mercedes victory, but it feels like people don't know how to interpret Merc's current run of form because they are basically used to Merc having their way for the last 8 years or so.

Put yourself in the shoes of a Mclaren fan when they nearly won 2 races last year and bagged some poles as well. Or when RB was winning the altitude tracks in 2018 and 2019 and look at how fans react to those results and compare it to people prophesizing that Merc are back after a day like today.

Not really. I’m specifically referencing the clear performance gains since the Austin upgrade. Pretty much the first substantial performance upgrade of the season that wasn’t brought to fix an underlying fundamental flaw, but purely to make the car faster (with some weight reduction to boot).

This wasn’t some McLaren outlier win because of a crazy race. This has been a clear trend.

Ferrari and Red Bull have publicly acknowledged it as well. I don’t know why we have to always invent some sort of mental gymnastics to make something more difficult to interpret than it really is.

The RBR remains the best overall package, but now Merc can compete in races with the additional pace and superior degradation. Mexico and Brazil are very different circuits, and Merc performed well at both venues.

Mexico and Brazil are the same circuits that the RB14 and the RB15 excelled at. Those cars were never close to full season competitiveness. These aren't gymnastics.

Ferrari canned their '22 car in France. RB moved on in Spa. Naturally, Mercedes who is working with 10% more windtunnel time than RB and 5% more time than Ferrari, in addition to throwing on a 3-4 tenths upgrade package in Austin where RB and Ferrari remain with their midseason cars, then it looks like Mercedes are closing down gaps but its far more complex than that. Even today, RB was shafted by the limited free practice time. This performance that we saw today in Brazil is the same performance from Austria. Hamilton was very fast there. Had he not had the qualy crash, he would have been fighting Verstappen in a similar fashion because once again there are some circuits where the RB just doesn't work at all.

Ultimately we don't really know "what" the perspective for this Mercedes performance is until the first couple of rounds next season. That will show whether the current gains are real or if it was all a mirage based in the fact that RB and Ferrari moved on to their '23 package months before Mercedes did.

There would have been absolutely enormous pressure from Germany to win a race this season. It's now done thanks to the Austin upgrade. Mercedes are operating on a completely different run plan because they lost 8 to 10 months according to Toto finding out their porpoising issues. He said that here: https://www.formulanerds.com/news/toto- ... velopment/ The reality is they are likely still 8 to 10 months behind in the development for '23 car as well. One does not erase an 8 to 10 months development gap at the snap of a finger. These things are very complex. Teams develop at similar rates, when one team is making leaps relative to the others, it typically means the other teams are banking this performance in a different domain (i.e 2023). It's quite naive to think RB and Ferrari were just holding their nether regions while Mercedes "caught" them. One must get out of the habit of aggrandizing the development ability of 1 F1 team vs another when it comes to the big 3.

The W13 and its strengths/weaknesses have absolutely nothing to do with the RB14 and RB15. The altitude the past 2 races has probably helped the W13’s drag issues. But, again, the largest performance upgrade of the season took place across Austin and Mexico (important new front wing).

lol Austria? Merc finished a minute off the leaders. The car’s in a much different place.

The recent upgrade helped claw back pace against RB, who haven’t brought updates in a while.

Merc have been on par or better than Ferrari for a while now in race trim. I don’t know what Ferrari have been doing, but Ferrari and RBR were at level-pegging on pace to start the year, and Merc are now clearly faster in race trim, with better deg, and in a prime position to pass them in the WCC. Part of it is development, part of it was the floor changes, which clearly hurt them the most.

Aggrandize? I’ve heard it all now. It’s such a far cry to imagine the 8x WCC actually sorting its problems to become competitive once they figured out the bouncing that stopped them from pursuing performance (insert sarcasm here).

The W14 already started development months ago as well. Merc have publicly stated that. Red Bull showed last year that you can develop 2 concepts. It’s not a mutually exclusive choice (at least that’s what you used to vehemently argue).

If anything, the fact that Merc don’t have to start over with the W14 gains them back a huge swath of time.

Anyway, I’m done with this conversation. I’ll let the on-track results speak, and continue to speak, for themselves.