2022 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 11 - 13

[DChemTech]

It is also irrelevant if Max would not have made the corner otherwise

Actually it's very relevant. If Max couldn't have taken the corner (which would require massive understeer and about 45 deg slip angle of his tyres), then the steward ruling would have been correct. But he could have - so it wasn't...

I meant it is irrelevant because it did not happen - now, the stewards penalized him for something he did not do, as he was never given room to try and make the corner.

If he was given sufficient room by Hamilton, we would have known if he would or would not have made the corner, and if he did not make it and with that jeopardized Hamilton, he could have been penalized accordingly (and if he did make the corner, which I expect, it would have been a great overtake).

[basti313]

Put this to bed, or put yourselves to bed. This pointless debate is nearly as boring as this season. Move on.

Yes, in principle you are right.
The issue is the stupid ruling. It is as fourmula1 posted. The FIA is making up special rules for F1 that completely disagree with any other racing series and try to judge and penalize with them. This ends up in blunt inconsistency because the best of the best, namely a special GOAT can not drive next to another driver through a corner. Or because others seem to not be able to avoid making avoidable contact all the time. Which makes it so difficult not to talk about how stupid wheel to wheel racing in this nice sport is judged.

[Mosin123]

No you did a redbull special and posted fabricated evidence. Ill stick to what i seen on the real video, and maxs iwn words. Max chose to hit lewis. My evidence, maxs own words.... So your argument is invalidated, by max.

Please post evidence that Max wouldn't have made the corner, whatever there is. Also post that sentence where Max said he chose to hit Lewis

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... -collision

As i said, maxs line was to tight, only way he was making that turn was to slow down, some thing he failed to do...

But its ok , i know max fans only see what they want to see.

[SiLo]

No you did a redbull special and posted fabricated evidence. Ill stick to what i seen on the real video, and maxs iwn words. Max chose to hit lewis. My evidence, maxs own words.... So your argument is invalidated, by max.

Please post evidence that Max wouldn't have made the corner, whatever there is. Also post that sentence where Max said he chose to hit Lewis

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... -collision

As i said, maxs line was to tight, only way he was making that turn was to slow down, some thing he failed to do...

But its ok , i know max fans only see what they want to see.

He literally drove off the track straight after. Anyone saying "he didn't get an opportunity to slow down" are doing some olympic level mental gymnastics.

[chrisc90]

Please post evidence that Max wouldn't have made the corner, whatever there is. Also post that sentence where Max said he chose to hit Lewis

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... -collision

As i said, maxs line was to tight, only way he was making that turn was to slow down, some thing he failed to do...

But its ok , i know max fans only see what they want to see.

He literally drove off the track straight after. Anyone saying "he didn't get an opportunity to slow down" are doing some olympic level mental gymnastics.

Probably because the car was unsettled after making contact. If he drove off the track without contact, your comment would have foundation

[SiLo]

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... -collision

As i said, maxs line was to tight, only way he was making that turn was to slow down, some thing he failed to do...

But its ok , i know max fans only see what they want to see.

He literally drove off the track straight after. Anyone saying "he didn't get an opportunity to slow down" are doing some olympic level mental gymnastics.

Probably because the car was unsettled after making contact. If he drove off the track without contact, your comment would have foundation

Wonder why it was unsettled...

I jest, I'm just here to rile people because clearly, nobody can discuss it with any modicum of sense.

[chrisc90]

Well it was perfectly under control before the contact

[Mosin123]

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... -collision

As i said, maxs line was to tight, only way he was making that turn was to slow down, some thing he failed to do...

But its ok , i know max fans only see what they want to see.

He literally drove off the track straight after. Anyone saying "he didn't get an opportunity to slow down" are doing some olympic level mental gymnastics.

Probably because the car was unsettled after making contact. If he drove off the track without contact, your comment would have foundation

Not watchesd the videk obviously, he should have slowed down before contact was made, as Karun Chandhok put it, maxs approach was to tight and would have had to slow majorly to make the corner, before the approach to t2 starts you can already see it comng. MAX HIM SELF ADMITS IT.

Why do you max fans refuse to just accept max deliberately hit LH? Lol

[DChemTech]

He literally drove off the track straight after. Anyone saying "he didn't get an opportunity to slow down" are doing some olympic level mental gymnastics.

Probably because the car was unsettled after making contact. If he drove off the track without contact, your comment would have foundation

Not watchesd the videk obviously, he should have slowed down before contact was made, as Karun Chandhok put it, maxs approach was to tight and would have had to slow majorly to make the corner, before the approach to t2 starts you can already see it comng. MAX HIM SELF ADMITS IT.

Why do you max fans refuse to just accept max deliberately hit LH? Lol

Because that is not what he said, you are presenting a strawman.
What he said was that he did not expect Lewis to provide room [which according to the rules he should have done] and decided to make the move anyway and accept the consequence that that would come to a collision.

Was that a smart thing to do? I don't think it was and I said that before. In the end, he predominantly affected himself with it. But that's not the point: the point is he was entitled to the room on the inside given his track position, and he was not provided that room, which was an error of Lewis. Yet Max was penalized, and that is wrong. If Lewis had provided the room and Max would subsequently not make the corner, the fault would squarely be Max's. But now he could certainly not make the corner because someone else cut him off, and that's not Max's fault.

[fourmula1]

Please post evidence that Max wouldn't have made the corner, whatever there is. Also post that sentence where Max said he chose to hit Lewis

You guys are debating something that is irrelevant. Max would have tried to push Ham (compromise him) wide at exit 100%. That is why Ham has to pinch Max at entry. The FIA and stewards are allowing exactly this as evidenced by the resulting penalty!!! And that is inherently the problem here that you should be discussing. Max and Ham are very hard on one another but it is because of how the FIA has policed track limits, space, and wheel to wheel battles. As Nico mentioned Ham can drive in that grey area...Max came onto the scene and took it a step further. Most of their wheel to wheel action is one and done - one braking zone, one corner, and its over. If one of them concedes the entry, they will lose out on exit and the FIA has allowed that up until the end of last year. Blame the FIA not the drivers.

Also, I like that they penalized some of the lap one/restart incidents. I don't know who came up with "lap one incident" free pass nonsense. These are professionals. I don't care if its in the rain, if its lap one, a restart, whatever...hold them accountable. The racing will improve.

It's not about what Max would have done (in your personal extrapolation), it is about what actually happened. And what actually happened is that Lewis did not adhere to the requirement to leave 1 car width in the corner.

It is also irrelevant if Max would not have made the corner otherwise - if Lewis would have left 1 car room and Max would not have made the corner (and pushed Lewis off or hit him), the onus was clearly on Max and he should be penalized accordingly. But now, he simply did not get the chance to even try and make the corner, because he was not provided the room that, given that he was significantly alongside, was entitled to.

I mean...maybe I added too much of what I think would happen and you are focusing on that. Maybe a better way of wording is "typically, if we look at these moves, the inside driver run's the outside drive wide on exit". In this situation Max was penalized for not backing out. The FIA/Stewards are not requiring Ham to leave space in that situation. You may personally feel he should have left space, and so do I, but not the FIA. The problem is the FIA. I agree on entry Driver A needs to leave room, and on exit Driver B needs to leave room. The FIA does not agree my friend.

[DChemTech]

I mean...maybe I added too much of what I think would happen and you are focusing on that. Maybe a better way of wording is "typically, if we look at these moves, the inside driver run's the outside drive wide on exit". In this situation Max was penalized for not backing out. The FIA/Stewards are not requiring Ham to leave space in that situation. You may personally feel he should have left space, and so do I, but not the FIA. The problem is the FIA. I agree on entry Driver A needs to leave room, and on exit Driver B needs to leave room. The FIA does not agree my friend.

Thanks for the clarification, agree - leaving room at both the corner entry and exit by the respective drivers is important, and we have often enough seen Max perform poorly on the latter. Yet, it is unfortunate that they penalized Verstappen for hypothetically not leaving room at the exit, while letting Hamilton go for certainly not leaving room on entry; that is indeed on the FIA.

[sosic2121]

Please post evidence that Max wouldn't have made the corner, whatever there is. Also post that sentence where Max said he chose to hit Lewis

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... -collision

As i said, maxs line was to tight, only way he was making that turn was to slow down, some thing he failed to do...

But its ok , i know max fans only see what they want to see.

He literally drove off the track straight after. Anyone saying "he didn't get an opportunity to slow down" are doing some olympic level mental gymnastics.

He literally was crashed into after which he left the track.

[Vanja #66]

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... -collision

As i said, maxs line was to tight, only way he was making that turn was to slow down, some thing he failed to do...

But its ok , i know max fans only see what they want to see.

Well that's just embarrassing for Karun... He is willfully ignorant (I have no other explanation since he's a former F1 driver and we all know he knows better) on 3 subjects here:

- Max's steering angle and trajectory were compromised when he was hit by Lewis, so him leaving the track is absolutely no proof he wouldn't have made the corner without being hit (and even with that hit he left the track for only 2-2.5 meters in depth!)

- He's treating the attempted pass in T1 as finished, which it wasn't, so he somehow makes up an argument that Max had to leave Hamilton space in T2 while being on the inside line (!!!) Jesus, Karun, what space can you actually leave when you are on the inside

- He's using the fact Max gained an absolutely stunning length of one full meter (40 inches, a yard, etc) as "evidence" he was going too fast for the corner, calling it "great amount of speed"

His analysis really made me giggle

As for me being a Max fan, I'm actually a Tifosi and have an equal amount of bias (a grand total of zero) towards both Ham and Max. When I watch them racing (or whatever that is), I'm as objective as anyone. But you'll see that eventually, you just arrived here

[dans79]

I see a few issues here and various people are conflating them and causing confusion.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... r%2044.pdf

The Stewards reviewed the video from several angles, including In Car Cameras,
CCTV and broadcast video.
The Stewards determined that Verstappen attempted to pass Hamilton on the outside
of turn 1 by braking very late. He did not complete the pass in Turn 1 and his excess
speed compromised his entry into turn 2, at which point he made contact with
Hamilton. While the Stewards recognize that Hamilton could possibly have given a
little more room at the apex of turn 2, the Stewards determined that Verstappen was
predominantly at fault.

Some people don't like it, but as the rules are currently written each corner is considered in isolation with a few exceptions. As the Stewards stated Max braked very late, and carried a lot of speed throw the turn. That's how he gained so much ground on Lewis on the outside of turn 1,

however, Max did not complete the pass before turn 2, or enter turn 2 in a controlled non compromised fashion. Even before the collision Max is on a very sub optimal trajectory into turn 2. Before he even starts to turn into turn 2 his right front is on the inside white line.

Since Max didn't get passed in turn 1 Lewis isn't required to leave a full cars width for Max, and is allowed to take an optimal or almost optimal line. With that being said, Lewis can not bee seen as aggressively slamming the door on max, or he would be seen as the driver that caused the collision.

In some ways, it's the same old story its always been. If you try and overtake with a dive bomb (inside or out), you better be clearly ahead, under control, and have a somewhat realistic trajectory for the next section of track. If you are not, and contact occurs you are almost always going to be found at fault.

Lewis Knows this, and as the saying goes, he gave max just enough rope to hang himself with! In some ways max had to do it, or he most likely would have gotten jumped by Perez who was breathing down his neck at the restart.

Imo, Max's issue is he still doesn't anticipate the counter moves an astute driver is going to respond with when a successful overtake is still questionable.

[Mosin123]

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... -collision

As i said, maxs line was to tight, only way he was making that turn was to slow down, some thing he failed to do...

But its ok , i know max fans only see what they want to see.

Well that's just embarrassing for Karun... He is willfully ignorant (I have no other explanation since he's a former F1 driver and we all know he knows better) on 3 subjects here:

- Max's steering angle and trajectory were compromised when he was hit by Lewis, so him leaving the track is absolutely no proof he wouldn't have made the corner without being hit (and even with that hit he left the track for only 2-2.5 meters in depth!)

- He's treating the attempted pass in T1 as finished, which it wasn't, so he somehow makes up an argument that Max had to leave Hamilton space in T2 while being on the inside line (!!!) Jesus, Karun, what space can you actually leave when you are on the inside

- He's using the fact Max gained an absolutely stunning length of one full meter (40 inches, a yard, etc) as "evidence" he was going too fast for the corner, calling it "great amount of speed"

His analysis really made me giggle

As for me being a Max fan, I'm actually a Tifosi and have an equal amount of bias (a grand total of zero) towards both Ham and Max. When I watch them racing (or whatever that is), I'm as objective as anyone. But you'll see that eventually, you just arrived here

No, he said the same as the stewards did, your only BEEF is because its not what YOU WANTED to hear.

Max is a poor champion, He certainly isnt better than Lewis, Might be faster, but ive seen planks of wood with more racing aweness.