2022 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 11 - 13

[LM10]

https://amp.marca.com/en/f1/2022/11/14/ ... b45a0.html

"I think it's the team's job to make him understand why it's wrong, and he has to understand because it's very important if he wants to have a loyal squire like he has had in Checo," said De la Rosa.

"Nobody is going to want to work for Verstappen if they know that he is going to pay them back in this coin later," De la Rosa added.

[dans79]

https://amp.marca.com/en/f1/2022/11/14/ ... b45a0.html

"I think it's the team's job to make him understand why it's wrong, and he has to understand because it's very important if he wants to have a loyal squire like he has had in Checo," said De la Rosa.

"Nobody is going to want to work for Verstappen if they know that he is going to pay them back in this coin later," De la Rosa added.

yep, this is how you end up being the black sheep, or on the outside looking in, depending on what metaphor you prefer.

[chrisc90]

No, that’s the spirit of racing, leaving room for others, not running them out.

Remember 2017, vettel complaining about max weaving like crazy several occasions to defend. The list of dirty racing tactics of Max verstappen is a long one.

Ive lost count the amount of times Lewis has near enough left the whole of the track on the inside of him. I know its a touchy one but look at Max's move in AD '21 into turn 4 when he went down the inside. If Lewis was another 1.5-2 car widths into the centre of the track then Max wouldnt have got past.

Its one saying leaving the door open in racing....but sometimes Lewis leaves the barn door wide open.

There has been countless times this season too.

The reason he ”left the door open” was that there was no door to even be left open, since Max was too far back to even make a proper overtaking attempt. He did exactly the same thing in Jeddah, but on the outside. Simply decide to go WAY. TOO. FAST. into the corner without any chance of making a clean overtake stick. At least not without forcing the driver ahead to take evasive action and leave the track to keep his car intact. That is the SOLE reason Lewis was allowed to keep that position in AD. When Max had finally gotten his own car to turn, he was already at the edge of the track, leaving Lewis nowhere to go. Max was penalized for this type of move in Jeddah, and was in a way penalized for it in AD since Lewis was allowed to keep the position.

Now, there are two groups of people who don’t understand this simple rule of racing and are always surprised when Max gets a penalty. It’s: 1. Max and his closest team, and 2. His fans.

And it seems to be 100% impossible to explain it in a way to make them understand.

Just watch the first time Lewis overtakes Checo then look at the second time when the clip is ending. Look how much room he left the first time round. Second time he actually puts his car in a position where Perez cant overtake down the inside.

You justify your comments on a completely different overtake and not the one I was suggesting in my initial post.

[PlatinumZealot]

But Max hit Lewis and therefore takes majority blame.

Hitting a car by definition means you are driving into it (unless you lost control previously like Norris did when he hit Leclerc). Max was turning away from Hamilton, Hamilton was turning into Max and closing the gap he had to leave open. By definition, Hamilton hit Max.

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... 68x391.jpg
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... 68x391.jpg

Pretty much the same thing he did to Vettel in Monza 2018.

If he was smarter at that moment, he could have gone wide on T2 entry, let Max overshoot racing line and take inside for T3 and then Ham could blast away on the straight with T3 better exit speed. Would have likely won the race with that kind of move. He knows how to do that, he did it a few times. Alonso always does that for example...

You should remain a neutral in these conversations my esteemed friend.

[MadMax]

But Max hit Lewis and therefore takes majority blame.

Hitting a car by definition means you are driving into it (unless you lost control previously like Norris did when he hit Leclerc). Max was turning away from Hamilton, Hamilton was turning into Max and closing the gap he had to leave open. By definition, Hamilton hit Max.

Er, it depends on the frame of reference. From Max's perspective, Lewis hit him. From Lewis's perspective, Max hit him.

From the stewards perspective, it was Max's fault.

[f1jcw]

But Max hit Lewis and therefore takes majority blame.

Hitting a car by definition means you are driving into it (unless you lost control previously like Norris did when he hit Leclerc). Max was turning away from Hamilton, Hamilton was turning into Max and closing the gap he had to leave open. By definition, Hamilton hit Max.

Er, it depends on the frame of reference. From Max's perspective, Lewis hit him. From Lewis's perspective, Max hit him.

From the stewards perspective, it was Max's fault.

Dam! How stupid of Lewis to turn for a corner!

On my driving lessons I was always told to turn for a corner, silly me I’ve being doing it wrong all these years

[Incognito]

If he was smarter at that moment, he could have gone wide on T2 entry, let Max overshoot racing line and take inside for T3 and then Ham could blast away on the straight with T3 better exit speed. Would have likely won the race with that kind of move. He knows how to do that, he did it a few times. Alonso always does that for example...

A few people have suggested just this, that Hamilton should bide his time and wait to get him at a later corner of straight. But how does that end?

Well, based on previous experience:-
a) Verstappen doesn't make the turn, spearing into you and ending up parked on top of you with his rear wheels resting on or near your helmet. At which point, he will then floor it. Better hope that sticky rubber isn't resting on your helmet.

b) You slipstream Verstappen down the straight and he simply brakes, mid-straight, so hard that he locks the rear axle. This will almost certainly end your race and also has a chance of seriously injuring you.

c) Verstappen will cover the inside of the corner so you will need to go around the outside. Verstappen will not only fail to make the corner, but will follow you 4 to 5 car widths off the track, presumably in the hopes of making contact with you (unless he is the worst driver F1 has seen in decades).

To be honest, given past history I'd rather we hit side-to-side at low speed than any of these, at least I'm not running the risk of being crippled. Sure, "Let Verstappen race" seems to have been limited to last year, but Verstappen confirmed in his after race comments that he cares neither about penalties nor whatever expenditure/work he creates for the rest of Red Bull Racing so why wouldn't he repeat his consistent pattern of behaviour?

It's strange that, despite the numerous opportunities to punt Verstappen off when Verstappen had something on the line, Hamilton didn't do so. But, now when Hamilton could have been looking at his first-and-only win of the season, Verstappen dive bombs him up the inside (admitting he knew it would end in contact and that, even if he overtook him, it would "mean nothing" to his own race). And, given what happened when roles were reversed and Ocon was on the inside and Verstappen the outside, at least Hamilton managed to not assault Verstappen in the weighing room afterwards.

None of these things were acceptable...until Verstappen "showed the world who he really is". But, yeah, "Safe hands"...

[AR3-GP]

If he was smarter at that moment, he could have gone wide on T2 entry, let Max overshoot racing line and take inside for T3 and then Ham could blast away on the straight with T3 better exit speed. Would have likely won the race with that kind of move. He knows how to do that, he did it a few times. Alonso always does that for example...

A few people have suggested just this, that Hamilton should bide his time and wait to get him at a later corner of straight. But how does that end?

Well, based on previous experience:-
a) Verstappen doesn't make the turn, spearing into you and ending up parked on top of you with his rear wheels resting on or near your helmet. At which point, he will then floor it. Better hope that sticky rubber isn't resting on your helmet.

b) You slipstream Verstappen down the straight and he simply brakes, mid-straight, so hard that he locks the rear axle. This will almost certainly end your race and also has a chance of seriously injuring you.

c) Verstappen will cover the inside of the corner so you will need to go around the outside. Verstappen will not only fail to make the corner, but will follow you 4 to 5 car widths off the track, presumably in the hopes of making contact with you (unless he is the worst driver F1 has seen in decades).

To be honest, given past history I'd rather we hit side-to-side at low speed than any of these, at least I'm not running the risk of being crippled. Sure, "Let Verstappen race" seems to have been limited to last year, but Verstappen confirmed in his after race comments that he cares neither about penalties nor whatever expenditure/work he creates for the rest of Red Bull Racing so why wouldn't he repeat his consistent pattern of behaviour?

It's strange that, despite the numerous opportunities to punt Verstappen off when Verstappen had something on the line, Hamilton didn't do so. But, now when Hamilton could have been looking at his first-and-only win of the season, Verstappen dive bombs him up the inside (admitting he knew it would end in contact and that, even if he overtook him, it would "mean nothing" to his own race). And, given what happened when roles were reversed and Ocon was on the inside and Verstappen the outside, at least Hamilton managed to not assault Verstappen in the weighing room afterwards.

None of these things were acceptable...until Verstappen "showed the world who he really is". But, yeah, "Safe hands"...

Russell passed Verstappen fairly easily in the sprint race. There was nothing to suggest RB had a car to battle Mercedes this weekend. As OP pointed out, Hamilton deviated from type and forced the issue with Verstappen. Hamilton is normally far more conservative and strategic, thinking of the long game. He even told Verstappen in 2018 that one has to understand who has more to lose and then go from there.

Brazil was a complete out of character move from him. Of course it has to do with Verstappen. Hamilton would have left room if it was any other driver. As for Verstappen's gutsy attempt around the outside? He was in a slower car and saw likely his only opportunity to get in front of a Mercedes. Not much to lose because he would be behind otherwise. Dare I say, it's Massa-Hamilton all over again whereby you just replace Massa w/ Verstappen.

[Vanja #66]

You should remain a neutral in these conversations my esteemed friend.

I was away from these whodunnit discussions and apparently needed a fix... It's more fun taking part as a neutral

[mendis]

https://amp.marca.com/en/f1/2022/11/14/ ... b45a0.html

"I think it's the team's job to make him understand why it's wrong, and he has to understand because it's very important if he wants to have a loyal squire like he has had in Checo," said De la Rosa.

"Nobody is going to want to work for Verstappen if they know that he is going to pay them back in this coin later," De la Rosa added.

yep, this is how you end up being the black sheep, or on the outside looking in, depending on what metaphor you prefer.

In 2012, Webber screwed Vettel through the last races and didn't play the team game. It infuriated Vettel and he showed his displeasure in Malaysia 2013. For RB, Vettel was the primary asset and everything revolved around him. Sometimes, it doesn't matter. Massa and Kimi were also reduced to similar roles and Alonso was never really kind to them. Last year, even Bottas screwed Lewis a few times, similar to Webber and that's life for No.2s. But the alpha driver always finds a way to move forward and fight on his own. For so long as Max remains the potent weapon, RB has no choice but to put their eggs in his basket, despite his tantrums. As for that second seat, there would be host of drivers that would take it up, even if it means ending up in a similar situation to Checo.

[Ben1980]

Still an unwinnable argument.

Was it this bad when Russell got his 5 second penalty against Perez in Austria. When he tried to overtake on the inside.

If you are so blinkered to not accept both were in the wrong then more fool you.

[basti313]

Still an unwinnable argument.

Was it this bad when Russell got his 5 second penalty against Perez in Austria. When he tried to overtake on the inside.

If you are so blinkered to not accept both were in the wrong then more fool you.

There is a big difference between two cars bumping front wheels and one car tapping the front against the rear wheel to rotate another car. The latter one is a simple no-go in any 4 wheel racing and a drive through. As F1 tries to go against this principle of motorsports it is always difficult to argue, we all have to accept the resulting inconsistency.

Furthermore: The second principle is to leave space. Similar to track limits being the white line, the only consistent rule would be to leave space. Also accepted in any other racing series except for F1.
As long as we allow that someone at some point does not have to leave space we are discussing nonsense like if the move of Ver against Ham in the first corner of last year...it would be all clear.

[MadMax]

Hitting a car by definition means you are driving into it (unless you lost control previously like Norris did when he hit Leclerc). Max was turning away from Hamilton, Hamilton was turning into Max and closing the gap he had to leave open. By definition, Hamilton hit Max.

Er, it depends on the frame of reference. From Max's perspective, Lewis hit him. From Lewis's perspective, Max hit him.

From the stewards perspective, it was Max's fault.

Dam! How stupid of Lewis to turn for a corner!

On my driving lessons I was always told to turn for a corner, silly me I’ve being doing it wrong all these years

Lewis is only allowed to turn the corner after Max has. Haven't you learned anything reading this forum?

[GrizzleBoy]

Er, it depends on the frame of reference. From Max's perspective, Lewis hit him. From Lewis's perspective, Max hit him.

From the stewards perspective, it was Max's fault.

Dam! How stupid of Lewis to turn for a corner!

On my driving lessons I was always told to turn for a corner, silly me I’ve being doing it wrong all these years

Lewis is only allowed to turn the corner after Max has. Haven't you learned anything reading this forum?

Indeed.

Even if Max parks 90 degrees across the racing line on corner exit after a divebomb to block off the track, other drivers should just park up and wait for him to eventually rotate his car in the right direction.

And if they leave the track to avoid a collision with Max because he's parked 90 degrees across the racing line, then that means they need to slow down and let Max pass them because they should've just parked and waited.

[SiLo]

In some ways, it's the same old story its always been. If you try and overtake with a dive bomb (inside or out), you better be clearly ahead, under control, and have a somewhat realistic trajectory for the next section of track. If you are not, and contact occurs you are almost always going to be found at fault.

If anyone wants to understand the stewards decision, this is all you need to read as its a simplified explanation of how the rules are currently written on this topic.

At best this was a racing incident and at worst Max has gone for a bit of a second divebomb in as many corners and its not worked out.