2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[AeroDynamic]

‘They’ aren’t interested in what actually unfolded during that season. These are ‘stats’ people, that’s all they look at.

No surprise, that all this would be dug up again, as soon as Russell achieved the goal of beating Hamilton in the pts standings. Just fishing and to tarnish his legacy is all.

Funny how Hamilton fans do exactly the same when the topic is him against Alonso.

I'm sorry if being factual and objective stands in the way of your narrative.

Not entirely sure Alonso is a good example of this. Lewis beat him over a season and realistically drove better as well. That's not to say Alonso wasn't also excellent in the second half of the season to claw back some points.

Alonso is a poor example. The standings say that they performed neck and neck. But in Alonso's own words, it took a "miracle" in one weekend to finish in front of Hamilton in Turkey and inherit his podium, and the other high profile misfortunes of Lewis towards the end such as Brazil and China aren't to be ignored.

The standings are only objective in that they quantify who enjoyed success and by how much on what weekend. They do not tell you why or how @Harty.

outright dominance by certain drivers are down to the team in some way, never to credit only the driver.

in the case of Lewis and George, George has been fantastic but theres a reason why many people who were gunning to hype him up as evidence of Lewis being a 'poor driver' went quiet and in fact started to turn on him and minimise his talent because he wasn't convincingly beating Lewis the times he did and was evidently falling into Lewis' shadow in the second half of the season.

Brazil weekend may be the first time he did it convincingly on track (that I can recall) without safety car-in the pit-overtakes or otherwise. Though there is still the variable of if there was any performance compromise for Lewis after his contact with Max earlier.

George did circumstantially take advantage out of his own qualifying blunder on the weekend though. These two can be so close in performance that DRS, qualifying position etc is a substantial factor in who will finish ahead between them.

It would be as intense as it was between Hamilton and Verstappen last year if it were for a title.

[harty71]

Funny how Hamilton fans do exactly the same when the topic is him against Alonso.

I'm sorry if being factual and objective stands in the way of your narrative.

Not entirely sure Alonso is a good example of this. Lewis beat him over a season and realistically drove better as well. That's not to say Alonso wasn't also excellent in the second half of the season to claw back some points.

Alonso is a poor example. The standings say that they performed neck and neck. But in Alonso's own words, it took a "miracle" in one weekend to finish in front of Hamilton in Turkey and inherit his podium, and the other high profile misfortunes of Lewis towards the end such as Brazil and China aren't to be ignored.

The standings are only objective in that they quantify who enjoyed success and by how much on what weekend. They do not tell you why or how @Harty.

outright dominance by certain drivers are down to the team in some way, never to credit only the driver.

in the case of Lewis and George, George has been fantastic but theres a reason why many people who were gunning to hype him up as evidence of Lewis being a 'poor driver' went quiet and in fact started to turn on him and minimise his talent because he wasn't convincingly beating Lewis the times he did and was evidently falling into Lewis' shadow in the second half of the season.

Brazil weekend may be the first time he did it convincingly on track (that I can recall) without safety car-in the pit-overtakes or otherwise. Though there is still the variable of if there was any performance compromise for Lewis after his contact with Max earlier.

George did circumstantially take advantage out of his own qualifying blunder on the weekend though. These two can be so close in performance that DRS, qualifying position etc is a substantial factor in who will finish ahead between them.

It would be as intense as it was between Hamilton and Verstappen last year if it were for a title.

That I agree, there's been nothing between them all year. Still, that doesn't help Hamilton's profile, quite the opposite for me.

Should the greatest of all time be struggling so much with a driver in his first season in the team, not in my view.

It's a stretch calling someone the GOAT when it's not even apparent he's the best driver in his own team.

[El_KaPpa]

I think we must accept that Russell was superior all weekend, he's not the first driver to defeat Hamilton but given the circumstances I don't think Bottas or even Rosberg for that matter would have held him off.

Both Rosberg and Bottas have done the holding up Lewis job to win races. There have been also times when they cracked when Lewis chased them. We will see if George is better than both of them.

This 🫡

[AR3-GP]

I think we must accept that Russell was superior all weekend, he's not the first driver to defeat Hamilton but given the circumstances I don't think Bottas or even Rosberg for that matter would have held him off.

Both Rosberg and Bottas have done the holding up Lewis job to win races. There have been also times when they cracked when Lewis chased them. We will see if George is better than both of them.

I agree that more time and evidence is needed for Russell to prove he is better than Rosberg, but Bottas? It's without question. Qualifying is just a party trick. Racing is where it's at and Bottas wasn't good enough in that area.

[AeroDynamic]

Not entirely sure Alonso is a good example of this. Lewis beat him over a season and realistically drove better as well. That's not to say Alonso wasn't also excellent in the second half of the season to claw back some points.

Alonso is a poor example. The standings say that they performed neck and neck. But in Alonso's own words, it took a "miracle" in one weekend to finish in front of Hamilton in Turkey and inherit his podium, and the other high profile misfortunes of Lewis towards the end such as Brazil and China aren't to be ignored.

The standings are only objective in that they quantify who enjoyed success and by how much on what weekend. They do not tell you why or how @Harty.

outright dominance by certain drivers are down to the team in some way, never to credit only the driver.

in the case of Lewis and George, George has been fantastic but theres a reason why many people who were gunning to hype him up as evidence of Lewis being a 'poor driver' went quiet and in fact started to turn on him and minimise his talent because he wasn't convincingly beating Lewis the times he did and was evidently falling into Lewis' shadow in the second half of the season.

Brazil weekend may be the first time he did it convincingly on track (that I can recall) without safety car-in the pit-overtakes or otherwise. Though there is still the variable of if there was any performance compromise for Lewis after his contact with Max earlier.

George did circumstantially take advantage out of his own qualifying blunder on the weekend though. These two can be so close in performance that DRS, qualifying position etc is a substantial factor in who will finish ahead between them.

It would be as intense as it was between Hamilton and Verstappen last year if it were for a title.

That I agree, there's been nothing between them all year. Still, that doesn't help Hamilton's profile, quite the opposite for me.

Should the greatest of all time be struggling so much with a driver in his first season in the team, not in my view.

It's a stretch calling someone the GOAT when it's not even apparent he's the best driver in his own team.

Seems you have an axe to grind with Lewis more than anything.

Its his first season in the team but its every drivers first season with these new cars, tyres and wheels.

I wouldn't quantify Lewis as struggling, certainly not in the second half of the season and only in terms of execution (not pace) in the first half of the season. The first half is marred by too many circumstantial elements and variables that were against Lewis on weekends -and inflated George's points haul in the standings several times beyond merit of actually beating Hamilton by his driving) but also against his intention. George is there to shine in his first season in a top fighting team. That's what hes more concerned with; not being in Lewis' shadow. Lewis on the other hand is in his finals years of F1 and is desperate to have the oppertunity to fight for titles before he retires.

The team were in a dire situation this year, in their quest to help him on that campaign with the W13 and himself and the team have taken it upon themselves to especially use his weekends to learn the car, gather data and get the ball rolling in fixing where they went wrong. Focusing on the big picture and getting the team back all the way to the top is where his mindset is.

George's is inevitably been on comfort with the car despite experiments, and getting best results because hes eager to prove he belongs in a top team and with Hamilton.

Its not a coincidence that as soon as Hamilton started to focus on his own performances some more, he started to stay ahead of George consistently.

For one reason or another (DRS failure in Hungary, Georges Spin in the Brazil Qualifying) George has circumstantially had the upper hand to deliver the better result on the weekends where Mercedes had their best shot at Pole, Victory etc. For whatever reason, pretty much all of Lewis' best shots have been undone by poorly timed safety cars (Silverstone, Zandvoort etc)

I just think people are quantifying too big of an opinion on either of them yet. As soon as George is in Lewis' shadow, hes no longer the promising top talent and future Champion. Soon as he has a good result, its back to hyping him up and using that to say Lewis is ordinary and not worthy of his success. It's quite irrational, What are we saying about Alonso if this ordinary driver so comfortably had Alonso under control as a Rookie? The only explanation for that is those irrational conspiracy theories Alonso peddled about sabotage.

[Big Tea]

That I agree, there's been nothing between them all year. Still, that doesn't help Hamilton's profile, quite the opposite for me.

Should the greatest of all time be struggling so much with a driver in his first season in the team, not in my view.

It's a stretch calling someone the GOAT when it's not even apparent he's the best driver in his own team.

We have to take context into account here. When you are a kid and someone gives you cash you are chuffed and happy with it. Once you have been working for a while, if the same person gives you the same gift you are still happy, but you may not be so happy to walk as far to collect it.

George seriously wants results of podiums and points, where Lewis has a cupboard full of them. Still wanted, still grateful, but maybe he will wait for the rain to stop before he goes out for it.

[harty71]

Alonso is a poor example. The standings say that they performed neck and neck. But in Alonso's own words, it took a "miracle" in one weekend to finish in front of Hamilton in Turkey and inherit his podium, and the other high profile misfortunes of Lewis towards the end such as Brazil and China aren't to be ignored.

The standings are only objective in that they quantify who enjoyed success and by how much on what weekend. They do not tell you why or how @Harty.

outright dominance by certain drivers are down to the team in some way, never to credit only the driver.

in the case of Lewis and George, George has been fantastic but theres a reason why many people who were gunning to hype him up as evidence of Lewis being a 'poor driver' went quiet and in fact started to turn on him and minimise his talent because he wasn't convincingly beating Lewis the times he did and was evidently falling into Lewis' shadow in the second half of the season.

Brazil weekend may be the first time he did it convincingly on track (that I can recall) without safety car-in the pit-overtakes or otherwise. Though there is still the variable of if there was any performance compromise for Lewis after his contact with Max earlier.

George did circumstantially take advantage out of his own qualifying blunder on the weekend though. These two can be so close in performance that DRS, qualifying position etc is a substantial factor in who will finish ahead between them.

It would be as intense as it was between Hamilton and Verstappen last year if it were for a title.

That I agree, there's been nothing between them all year. Still, that doesn't help Hamilton's profile, quite the opposite for me.

Should the greatest of all time be struggling so much with a driver in his first season in the team, not in my view.

It's a stretch calling someone the GOAT when it's not even apparent he's the best driver in his own team.

Seems you have an axe to grind with Lewis more than anything.

Its his first season in the team but its every drivers first season with these new cars, tyres and wheels.

I wouldn't quantify Lewis as struggling, certainly not in the second half of the season and only in terms of execution (not pace) in the first half of the season. The first half is marred by too many circumstantial elements and variables that were against Lewis on weekends -and inflated George's points haul in the standings several times beyond merit of actually beating Hamilton by his driving) but also against his intention. George is there to shine in his first season in a top fighting team. That's what hes more concerned with; not being in Lewis' shadow. Lewis on the other hand is in his finals years of F1 and is desperate to have the oppertunity to fight for titles before he retires.

The team were in a dire situation this year, in their quest to help him on that campaign with the W13 and himself and the team have taken it upon themselves to especially use his weekends to learn the car, gather data and get the ball rolling in fixing where they went wrong. Focusing on the big picture and getting the team back all the way to the top is where his mindset is.

George's is inevitably been on comfort with the car despite experiments, and getting best results because hes eager to prove he belongs in a top team and with Hamilton.

Its not a coincidence that as soon as Hamilton started to focus on his own performances some more, he started to stay ahead of George consistently.

For one reason or another (DRS failure in Hungary, Georges Spin in the Brazil Qualifying) George has circumstantially had the upper hand to deliver the better result on the weekends where Mercedes had their best shot at Pole, Victory etc. For whatever reason, pretty much all of Lewis' best shots have been undone by poorly timed safety cars (Silverstone, Zandvoort etc)

I just think people are quantifying too big of an opinion on either of them yet. As soon as George is in Lewis' shadow, hes no longer the promising top talent and future Champion. Soon as he has a good result, its back to hyping him up and using that to say Lewis is ordinary and not worthy of his success. It's quite irrational, What are we saying about Alonso if this ordinary driver so comfortably had Alonso under control as a Rookie? The only explanation for that is those irrational conspiracy theories Alonso peddled about sabotage.

You're putting subjective and circumstantial evidence forward, one could do the same for Alonso in 2007.

If Hamilton hadn't had broken protocol in Hungary, Alonso would have kept his head and held on to pole.

If Ron Dennis didn't make it clear "We are racing Alonso" then people may not have bought all the conspiracy theories that season.

When the car was difficult you would expect the driver with the star qualities to shine, in reality the opposite happened, Russell shone and Hamilton struggled like mad.

At the end of the day there's been nothing between them performance wise over the course of the season, I just expected more from the most successful driver of all time.

[DGP123]

Seems you have an axe to grind with Lewis more than anything

Yes, he does

[chrisc90]

Didnt they always merge their findings from when lewis ran different setups in free practice though?

How many races did they actually compete with a radically different car to the other team-mate?

[harty71]

Didnt they always merge their findings from when lewis ran different setups in free practice though?

How many races did they actually compete with a radically different car to the other team-mate?

That's what I've said all along, I'm sick to death of seeing Hamilton fans write rubbish like Russell only won because Lewis sacrificed his own races to help the team, what utter hogwash.

Both drivers were trying things throughout the season, if any setup wasn't working or was a complete mess they would have binned it for qualifying and the race in favour of something that works.

People can't accept that maybe Russell and his team performed better when the car was struggling for performance and bouncing.

[AeroDynamic]

That I agree, there's been nothing between them all year. Still, that doesn't help Hamilton's profile, quite the opposite for me.

Should the greatest of all time be struggling so much with a driver in his first season in the team, not in my view.

It's a stretch calling someone the GOAT when it's not even apparent he's the best driver in his own team.

Seems you have an axe to grind with Lewis more than anything.

Its his first season in the team but its every drivers first season with these new cars, tyres and wheels.

I wouldn't quantify Lewis as struggling, certainly not in the second half of the season and only in terms of execution (not pace) in the first half of the season. The first half is marred by too many circumstantial elements and variables that were against Lewis on weekends -and inflated George's points haul in the standings several times beyond merit of actually beating Hamilton by his driving) but also against his intention. George is there to shine in his first season in a top fighting team. That's what hes more concerned with; not being in Lewis' shadow. Lewis on the other hand is in his finals years of F1 and is desperate to have the oppertunity to fight for titles before he retires.

The team were in a dire situation this year, in their quest to help him on that campaign with the W13 and himself and the team have taken it upon themselves to especially use his weekends to learn the car, gather data and get the ball rolling in fixing where they went wrong. Focusing on the big picture and getting the team back all the way to the top is where his mindset is.

George's is inevitably been on comfort with the car despite experiments, and getting best results because hes eager to prove he belongs in a top team and with Hamilton.

Its not a coincidence that as soon as Hamilton started to focus on his own performances some more, he started to stay ahead of George consistently.

For one reason or another (DRS failure in Hungary, Georges Spin in the Brazil Qualifying) George has circumstantially had the upper hand to deliver the better result on the weekends where Mercedes had their best shot at Pole, Victory etc. For whatever reason, pretty much all of Lewis' best shots have been undone by poorly timed safety cars (Silverstone, Zandvoort etc)

I just think people are quantifying too big of an opinion on either of them yet. As soon as George is in Lewis' shadow, hes no longer the promising top talent and future Champion. Soon as he has a good result, its back to hyping him up and using that to say Lewis is ordinary and not worthy of his success. It's quite irrational, What are we saying about Alonso if this ordinary driver so comfortably had Alonso under control as a Rookie? The only explanation for that is those irrational conspiracy theories Alonso peddled about sabotage.

You're putting subjective and circumstantial evidence forward, one could do the same for Alonso in 2007.

If Hamilton hadn't had broken protocol in Hungary, Alonso would have kept his head and held on to pole.

If Ron Dennis didn't make it clear "We are racing Alonso" then people may not have bought all the conspiracy theories that season.

When the car was difficult you would expect the driver with the star qualities to shine, in reality the opposite happened, Russell shone and Hamilton struggled like mad.

At the end of the day there's been nothing between them performance wise over the course of the season, I just expected more from the most successful driver of all time.

Alonso lost his head completely from Hamilton's performance. It just culminated in Hungary where he later asked them to sabotage his car. Before eventually sabotaging the team with the FIA. That's why they were racing Alonso from then on.

You're irrationally suggesting that only one of them can shine. They both have. Sainz 'shined' against Leclerc in 2021 and then the reality of their performances showed this season. Lewis' star qualities certainly shined in 07 while Alonso struggled with new tyres despite having a season's worth of free practice with the car alongside Hamilton as a then rookie.

There has been something between them performance wise, Lewis' qualifying head to head with George is still in his favour, as is his podium finishes (not including the fact that George would be down a number of points, and In the podium head to head if it wasn't for some lucky safety car-in the pit overtakes against his teammate)

Finishing positions don't quantify race performance. They are very circumstantial until you boil the weekend down to the details. i.e. Is Kevin Magnussen suddenly the fastest driver on the grid because he got Pole? or George in the Williams in Spa 2021? or Stroll in Turkey 2020? no.

[harty71]

Seems you have an axe to grind with Lewis more than anything.

Its his first season in the team but its every drivers first season with these new cars, tyres and wheels.

I wouldn't quantify Lewis as struggling, certainly not in the second half of the season and only in terms of execution (not pace) in the first half of the season. The first half is marred by too many circumstantial elements and variables that were against Lewis on weekends -and inflated George's points haul in the standings several times beyond merit of actually beating Hamilton by his driving) but also against his intention. George is there to shine in his first season in a top fighting team. That's what hes more concerned with; not being in Lewis' shadow. Lewis on the other hand is in his finals years of F1 and is desperate to have the oppertunity to fight for titles before he retires.

The team were in a dire situation this year, in their quest to help him on that campaign with the W13 and himself and the team have taken it upon themselves to especially use his weekends to learn the car, gather data and get the ball rolling in fixing where they went wrong. Focusing on the big picture and getting the team back all the way to the top is where his mindset is.

George's is inevitably been on comfort with the car despite experiments, and getting best results because hes eager to prove he belongs in a top team and with Hamilton.

Its not a coincidence that as soon as Hamilton started to focus on his own performances some more, he started to stay ahead of George consistently.

For one reason or another (DRS failure in Hungary, Georges Spin in the Brazil Qualifying) George has circumstantially had the upper hand to deliver the better result on the weekends where Mercedes had their best shot at Pole, Victory etc. For whatever reason, pretty much all of Lewis' best shots have been undone by poorly timed safety cars (Silverstone, Zandvoort etc)

I just think people are quantifying too big of an opinion on either of them yet. As soon as George is in Lewis' shadow, hes no longer the promising top talent and future Champion. Soon as he has a good result, its back to hyping him up and using that to say Lewis is ordinary and not worthy of his success. It's quite irrational, What are we saying about Alonso if this ordinary driver so comfortably had Alonso under control as a Rookie? The only explanation for that is those irrational conspiracy theories Alonso peddled about sabotage.

You're putting subjective and circumstantial evidence forward, one could do the same for Alonso in 2007.

If Hamilton hadn't had broken protocol in Hungary, Alonso would have kept his head and held on to pole.

If Ron Dennis didn't make it clear "We are racing Alonso" then people may not have bought all the conspiracy theories that season.

When the car was difficult you would expect the driver with the star qualities to shine, in reality the opposite happened, Russell shone and Hamilton struggled like mad.

At the end of the day there's been nothing between them performance wise over the course of the season, I just expected more from the most successful driver of all time.

Alonso lost his head completely from Hamilton's performance. It just culminated in Hungary where he later asked them to sabotage his car. Before eventually sabotaging the team with the FIA. That's why they were racing Alonso from then on.

You're irrationally suggesting that only one of them can shine. They both have. Sainz 'shined' against Leclerc in 2021 and then the reality of their performances showed this season. Lewis' star qualities certainly shined in 07 while Alonso struggled with new tyres despite having a season's worth of free practice with the car alongside Hamilton as a then rookie.

There has been something between them performance wise, Lewis' qualifying head to head with George is still in his favour, as is his podium finishes (not including the fact that George would be down a number of points, and In the podium head to head if it wasn't for some lucky safety car-in the pit overtakes against his teammate)

Finishing positions don't quantify race performance. They are very circumstantial until you boil the weekend down to the details. i.e. Is Kevin Magnussen suddenly the fastest driver on the grid because he got Pole? or George in the Williams in Spa 2021? or Stroll in Turkey 2020? no.

Ok, George leads Hamilton 11-10 in races, these are facts.

We can argue the toss until the cows come home, Russell has been more consistent performance wise, there's also been a few races where Hamilton finished ahead but Russell looked faster and had better tyre life, Mexico was a recent example, funny how races like that don't get mentioned.

Both have made more mistakes than they really should have in we're being honest, it will be interesting to see how it pans out next season between them.

[MadMax]

When the car was difficult you would expect the driver with the star qualities to shine, in reality the opposite happened, Russell shone and Hamilton struggled like mad.

At the end of the day there's been nothing between them performance wise over the course of the season, I just expected more from the most successful driver of all time.

The team were quite open that Hamilton was running extreme experimental stuff like floors that just didn't work. Russell was doing some experimental work too but to a less extreme extent.

However, that doesn't detract from the fact that Russell has done a great job over the whole season and is to be applauded for it.

It's particularly interesting that Hamilton hasn't thrown his toys around this season, unlike some drivers when they are having a bad run.

[harty71]

When the car was difficult you would expect the driver with the star qualities to shine, in reality the opposite happened, Russell shone and Hamilton struggled like mad.

At the end of the day there's been nothing between them performance wise over the course of the season, I just expected more from the most successful driver of all time.

The team were quite open that Hamilton was running extreme experimental stuff like floors that just didn't work. Russell was doing some experimental work too but to a less extreme extent.

However, that doesn't detract from the fact that Russell has done a great job over the whole season and is to be applauded for it.

It's particularly interesting that Hamilton hasn't thrown his toys around this season, unlike some drivers when they are having a bad run.

Yes, in practice maybe, I'm sure he had the opportunity to revert if the setup was duff though.

Why would the team want to use setups that clearly aren't working in practice, I very much doubt they are that inept.

If he started throwing a strop he would only alienate himself from the team and would receive a lot of stick from the press.

Let's not kid ourselves, losing out to Russell will be hurting him, that I have no doubt.

[MadMax]

When the car was difficult you would expect the driver with the star qualities to shine, in reality the opposite happened, Russell shone and Hamilton struggled like mad.

At the end of the day there's been nothing between them performance wise over the course of the season, I just expected more from the most successful driver of all time.

The team were quite open that Hamilton was running extreme experimental stuff like floors that just didn't work. Russell was doing some experimental work too but to a less extreme extent.

However, that doesn't detract from the fact that Russell has done a great job over the whole season and is to be applauded for it.

It's particularly interesting that Hamilton hasn't thrown his toys around this season, unlike some drivers when they are having a bad run.

Yes, in practice maybe, I'm sure he had the opportunity to revert if the setup was duff though.

Why would the team want to use setups that clearly aren't working in practice, I very much doubt they are that inept.

If he started throwing a strop he would only alienate himself from the team and would receive a lot of stick from the press.

Let's not kid ourselves, losing out to Russell will be hurting him, that I have no doubt.

They were doing things to try to figure out what would / wouldn't affect the issue. As a shooting instructor said to us once - if it isn't working, try something different even if it seems weird. Just doing the same thing over and over will give you the same bad result.

I think Hamilton is secure enough in himself and his position in the team to not feel hurt at all, to be honest. He knows that this year was never going to be a normal season. And after the pain of having the title stolen from him by the RD in AD21, I don't think this season has been anything other than him trying to help the team get back so he can fight for that rightful 8th title.

If they have a proper car next year, I expect to see tensions arise between the Merc drivers as that will be a proper test of their relationship.