2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[jody391]

I think many people will understand what Lewis has done this year for the team.

That drive back on Sunday after he was shunted off again shows where his head/speed is at.

Next year you might see an almighty crushing in both championships if the cars there!

[RonMexico]

Hamilton'a had two tenths worth of damage the engineers say. It was sorta obvious that Hamilton allowed the win. He showed what he could do by getting into Russell's DRS at will and then backing out. What we saw was a generous leader who is handing over the baton.

Beautifully put lmao

[RonMexico]

I don't know how anyone could have watched this entire season and decide that Russell outperformed Hamilton.
There has not been one race all year where George has undoubtedly shown superior pace than Lewis. He has shown better one lap pace at times. That's about it. The race pace has been consistently in Hamilton's favor.
Even if we do not fall for the experiments excuse, the way Russell won some races earlier in the season was due to pure luck where Hamilton was ahead and a safety car bailed Russell out.
But there have certainly been occasions where Lewis has been in another league in terms of race pace. Enter Spain, Hungary and Canada.
While there has not been one race all year where Russell has looked dominant over Hamilton. He is sometimes equal, but most of the time he has been slower.
The only one that looked like Russell was much faster was Imola, but Lewis was stuck in a DRS train and chose not to risk the pass, because at that point of the season he certainly felt they needed the lap data, so completing the race distance was the priority. While Russell was his agressive self and got by the slower cars with some bold moves and had a great result. He did have to hold on for dear life when a charging Bottas was catching him towards the end though. Suggesting to me at least that his pace overall was not that great on that occasion. A Merc should not have been threatened by an Alfa Romeo.
Russell definitely has been able to string up some strong results, but he has also shown a propensity to throw it away. Let's not kid ourselves, he's had trouble at the start of races, and even before this weekend his race craft was being questioned.
I would agree that it is true that if a title is on the line Lewis historically ups his game. Whenever his back is against the wall he has shown to up his level. Just look at the end of the 2014, 2016 and 2021 seasons as prime examples. Conversely when he is not in contention or the title has already been decided he has a tendency to let his foot off the gas; See 2013, 2015, when he was mediocre by his standards to end those seasons.
Can Russell beat Hamilton next year if the car is championship worthy? Yes, of course. Anything can happen, especially if reliability is a factor . Also Lewis is not getting any younger and he may start to lose it a little bit, but I have not seen anything this year that suggests he is going to fall off. He is still one of the very best drivers in F1. But sometimes luck trumps all those things. I think it's going to be a very exciting season in F1 next year even with the other teams as it looks like Max just created an intra team rivalry so I'll have my popcorn ready.

Russell was clearly faster in Imola, Saudi, Spain and Monaco. Arguably Brazil

[DGP123]

I don't know how anyone could have watched this entire season and decide that Russell outperformed Hamilton.
There has not been one race all year where George has undoubtedly shown superior pace than Lewis. He has shown better one lap pace at times. That's about it. The race pace has been consistently in Hamilton's favor.
Even if we do not fall for the experiments excuse, the way Russell won some races earlier in the season was due to pure luck where Hamilton was ahead and a safety car bailed Russell out.
But there have certainly been occasions where Lewis has been in another league in terms of race pace. Enter Spain, Hungary and Canada.
While there has not been one race all year where Russell has looked dominant over Hamilton. He is sometimes equal, but most of the time he has been slower.
The only one that looked like Russell was much faster was Imola, but Lewis was stuck in a DRS train and chose not to risk the pass, because at that point of the season he certainly felt they needed the lap data, so completing the race distance was the priority. While Russell was his agressive self and got by the slower cars with some bold moves and had a great result. He did have to hold on for dear life when a charging Bottas was catching him towards the end though. Suggesting to me at least that his pace overall was not that great on that occasion. A Merc should not have been threatened by an Alfa Romeo.
Russell definitely has been able to string up some strong results, but he has also shown a propensity to throw it away. Let's not kid ourselves, he's had trouble at the start of races, and even before this weekend his race craft was being questioned.
I would agree that it is true that if a title is on the line Lewis historically ups his game. Whenever his back is against the wall he has shown to up his level. Just look at the end of the 2014, 2016 and 2021 seasons as prime examples. Conversely when he is not in contention or the title has already been decided he has a tendency to let his foot off the gas; See 2013, 2015, when he was mediocre by his standards to end those seasons.
Can Russell beat Hamilton next year if the car is championship worthy? Yes, of course. Anything can happen, especially if reliability is a factor . Also Lewis is not getting any younger and he may start to lose it a little bit, but I have not seen anything this year that suggests he is going to fall off. He is still one of the very best drivers in F1. But sometimes luck trumps all those things. I think it's going to be a very exciting season in F1 next year even with the other teams as it looks like Max just created an intra team rivalry so I'll have my popcorn ready.

Russell was clearly faster in Imola, Saudi, Spain and Monaco. Arguably Brazil

Russell was faster in only 5 races. I guess that means Hamilton was faster in the other 16 races

[RonMexico]

I don't know how anyone could have watched this entire season and decide that Russell outperformed Hamilton.
There has not been one race all year where George has undoubtedly shown superior pace than Lewis. He has shown better one lap pace at times. That's about it. The race pace has been consistently in Hamilton's favor.
Even if we do not fall for the experiments excuse, the way Russell won some races earlier in the season was due to pure luck where Hamilton was ahead and a safety car bailed Russell out.
But there have certainly been occasions where Lewis has been in another league in terms of race pace. Enter Spain, Hungary and Canada.
While there has not been one race all year where Russell has looked dominant over Hamilton. He is sometimes equal, but most of the time he has been slower.
The only one that looked like Russell was much faster was Imola, but Lewis was stuck in a DRS train and chose not to risk the pass, because at that point of the season he certainly felt they needed the lap data, so completing the race distance was the priority. While Russell was his agressive self and got by the slower cars with some bold moves and had a great result. He did have to hold on for dear life when a charging Bottas was catching him towards the end though. Suggesting to me at least that his pace overall was not that great on that occasion. A Merc should not have been threatened by an Alfa Romeo.
Russell definitely has been able to string up some strong results, but he has also shown a propensity to throw it away. Let's not kid ourselves, he's had trouble at the start of races, and even before this weekend his race craft was being questioned.
I would agree that it is true that if a title is on the line Lewis historically ups his game. Whenever his back is against the wall he has shown to up his level. Just look at the end of the 2014, 2016 and 2021 seasons as prime examples. Conversely when he is not in contention or the title has already been decided he has a tendency to let his foot off the gas; See 2013, 2015, when he was mediocre by his standards to end those seasons.
Can Russell beat Hamilton next year if the car is championship worthy? Yes, of course. Anything can happen, especially if reliability is a factor . Also Lewis is not getting any younger and he may start to lose it a little bit, but I have not seen anything this year that suggests he is going to fall off. He is still one of the very best drivers in F1. But sometimes luck trumps all those things. I think it's going to be a very exciting season in F1 next year even with the other teams as it looks like Max just created an intra team rivalry so I'll have my popcorn ready.

Russell was clearly faster in Imola, Saudi, Spain and Monaco. Arguably Brazil

Russell was faster in only 5 races. I guess that means Hamilton was faster in the other 16 races

The question was for clearly faster, so faster in qualifying, the race and finished ahead.

[RZS10]

Some of those races did not allow a proper look at race pace though if one looks at them objectively.
We know quali pace early in the season was a bit of a lottery with the setups they ran.
Results can be impacted by various factors out of control of the drivers so ultimately race pace is the best (and with this gen of cars most important) thing to look at, no?

Imola: Hamilton was stuck in a DRS train and the moment you can't show your pace it will obviously look worse vs. your team mate in free air.
Spain: He had better race pace in Spain where he came back from 19th to 4th, one position behind George until a risk of DNF forced him to slow down and drop one position, even then his mean race pace was better overall.
Monaco: He was stuck behind others throughout the entire race, one of those drivers was Alonso who went extra slow on purpose, Russell was in relatively free air most of the time.
Brazil: he dropped to 8th and came back to 2nd, their pace in the first stint was very similar once Lewis was in free air, it was better after the first stop even though he had to overtake two cars and it was then essentially the same after the SC - all that with damage which was supposedly worth 1-2 tenths per lap.

The only race where you might have a point was Saudi, sure he was in traffic having to overtake a bunch of cars, the safety car came at the worst possible moment for his strategy but George was consistently pulling away from him when both had clean air before Hamilton had to pit for mediums (which also went wrong, lol)

So - without any bias and sticking to data/facts - it's one race out of the five mentioned where one could reasonable argue a difference in race pace pro Russell, two don't allow any conclusion one way or the other and two are pro Hamilton.

[Tvetovnato]

I don't know how anyone could have watched this entire season and decide that Russell outperformed Hamilton.
There has not been one race all year where George has undoubtedly shown superior pace than Lewis. He has shown better one lap pace at times. That's about it. The race pace has been consistently in Hamilton's favor.
Even if we do not fall for the experiments excuse, the way Russell won some races earlier in the season was due to pure luck where Hamilton was ahead and a safety car bailed Russell out.
But there have certainly been occasions where Lewis has been in another league in terms of race pace. Enter Spain, Hungary and Canada.
While there has not been one race all year where Russell has looked dominant over Hamilton. He is sometimes equal, but most of the time he has been slower.
The only one that looked like Russell was much faster was Imola, but Lewis was stuck in a DRS train and chose not to risk the pass, because at that point of the season he certainly felt they needed the lap data, so completing the race distance was the priority. While Russell was his agressive self and got by the slower cars with some bold moves and had a great result. He did have to hold on for dear life when a charging Bottas was catching him towards the end though. Suggesting to me at least that his pace overall was not that great on that occasion. A Merc should not have been threatened by an Alfa Romeo.
Russell definitely has been able to string up some strong results, but he has also shown a propensity to throw it away. Let's not kid ourselves, he's had trouble at the start of races, and even before this weekend his race craft was being questioned.
I would agree that it is true that if a title is on the line Lewis historically ups his game. Whenever his back is against the wall he has shown to up his level. Just look at the end of the 2014, 2016 and 2021 seasons as prime examples. Conversely when he is not in contention or the title has already been decided he has a tendency to let his foot off the gas; See 2013, 2015, when he was mediocre by his standards to end those seasons.
Can Russell beat Hamilton next year if the car is championship worthy? Yes, of course. Anything can happen, especially if reliability is a factor . Also Lewis is not getting any younger and he may start to lose it a little bit, but I have not seen anything this year that suggests he is going to fall off. He is still one of the very best drivers in F1. But sometimes luck trumps all those things. I think it's going to be a very exciting season in F1 next year even with the other teams as it looks like Max just created an intra team rivalry so I'll have my popcorn ready.

Russell was clearly faster in Imola, Saudi, Spain and Monaco. Arguably Brazil

In Spain, Lewis was massively faster in the race than Russell. Also quite easy to see when looking at the data.

[RonMexico]

Some of those races did not allow a proper look at race pace though if one looks at them objectively.
We know quali pace early in the season was a bit of a lottery with the setups they ran.
Results can be impacted by various factors out of control of the drivers so ultimately race pace is the best (and with this gen of cars most important) thing to look at, no?

Imola: Hamilton was stuck in a DRS train and the moment you can't show your pace it will obviously look worse vs. your team mate in free air.
Spain: He had better race pace in Spain where he came back from 19th to 4th, one position behind George until a risk of DNF forced him to slow down and drop one position, even then his mean race pace was better overall.
Monaco: He was stuck behind others throughout the entire race, one of those drivers was Alonso who went extra slow on purpose, Russell was in relatively free air most of the time.
Brazil: he dropped to 8th and came back to 2nd, their pace in the first stint was very similar once Lewis was in free air, it was better after the first stop even though he had to overtake two cars and it was then essentially the same after the SC - all that with damage which was supposedly worth 1-2 tenths per lap.

The only race where you might have a point was Saudi, sure he was in traffic having to overtake a bunch of cars, the safety car came at the worst possible moment for his strategy but George was consistently pulling away from him when both had clean air before Hamilton had to pit for mediums (which also went wrong, lol)

So - without any bias and sticking to data/facts - it's one race out of the five mentioned where one could reasonable argue a difference in race pace pro Russell, two don't allow any conclusion one way or the other and two are pro Hamilton.

The amount of hoops that have to be jumped through to satisfy fair/objective (in your opinion) conditions is hilarious.

Russell qualified ahead in all those races and made his own race. It's not his fault Hamilton got stuck behind others in Monaco and Imola.
Spain was an unfortunate incident on lap one which I forgot about. Russell led the race and drive home to a safe third so that can be left out. The others can not.

All Hamilton had to do was pass the driver he was stuck behind. There was no reliability issue or crash.

[RZS10]

If you ignore all those factors you simply aren't looking at raw race pace but at the result and those came, in large part, as a consequence of the quali experiments/performance ...

And even then, when you look at small portions when neither was stuck in traffic in Monaco for example his pace was still arguably better, the average time at the end was worse of course.

[RonMexico]

If you ignore all those factors you simply aren't looking at race pace but at the result.

Race pace is irrelevant if you finish behind.

You're completely ignoring drivers managing pace if there is no incentive to go faster, namely no more positions to be gained.

Qualifying is a skill. Race starts are a skill. Overtaking is a skill.

[chrisc90]

And the only result that should be discussed is the final finishing position. Everything else is irrelevant.

[RZS10]

So you're just shifting further and further away from Hammerfist's main point, which was race pace.

"Akshually he was slower in 5 races"
"Akshually he was slower in fewer races"
"Akshually race pace is irrelevant"

Cool discussion, thanks.

[harty71]

I don't know how anyone could have watched this entire season and decide that Russell outperformed Hamilton.
There has not been one race all year where George has undoubtedly shown superior pace than Lewis. He has shown better one lap pace at times. That's about it. The race pace has been consistently in Hamilton's favor.
Even if we do not fall for the experiments excuse, the way Russell won some races earlier in the season was due to pure luck where Hamilton was ahead and a safety car bailed Russell out.
But there have certainly been occasions where Lewis has been in another league in terms of race pace. Enter Spain, Hungary and Canada.
While there has not been one race all year where Russell has looked dominant over Hamilton. He is sometimes equal, but most of the time he has been slower.
The only one that looked like Russell was much faster was Imola, but Lewis was stuck in a DRS train and chose not to risk the pass, because at that point of the season he certainly felt they needed the lap data, so completing the race distance was the priority. While Russell was his agressive self and got by the slower cars with some bold moves and had a great result. He did have to hold on for dear life when a charging Bottas was catching him towards the end though. Suggesting to me at least that his pace overall was not that great on that occasion. A Merc should not have been threatened by an Alfa Romeo.
Russell definitely has been able to string up some strong results, but he has also shown a propensity to throw it away. Let's not kid ourselves, he's had trouble at the start of races, and even before this weekend his race craft was being questioned.
I would agree that it is true that if a title is on the line Lewis historically ups his game. Whenever his back is against the wall he has shown to up his level. Just look at the end of the 2014, 2016 and 2021 seasons as prime examples. Conversely when he is not in contention or the title has already been decided he has a tendency to let his foot off the gas; See 2013, 2015, when he was mediocre by his standards to end those seasons.
Can Russell beat Hamilton next year if the car is championship worthy? Yes, of course. Anything can happen, especially if reliability is a factor . Also Lewis is not getting any younger and he may start to lose it a little bit, but I have not seen anything this year that suggests he is going to fall off. He is still one of the very best drivers in F1. But sometimes luck trumps all those things. I think it's going to be a very exciting season in F1 next year even with the other teams as it looks like Max just created an intra team rivalry so I'll have my popcorn ready.

Russell was clearly faster in Imola, Saudi, Spain and Monaco. Arguably Brazil

You're forgetting Mexico, he had better tyre management and was gaining on Hamilton before Hamilton boxed to cover Perez, in situations like that just before a stop you see the true pace.

[RonMexico]

So you're just shifting further and further away from Hammerfist's main point, which was race pace.

"Akshually he was slower in 5 races"
"Akshually he was slower in fewer races"
"Akshually race pace is irrelevant"

Cool discussion, thanks.

Grasping at straws now.

Why should his performances in Monaco and Imola be discounted?

[harty71]

If you ignore all those factors you simply aren't looking at race pace but at the result.

Race pace is irrelevant if you finish behind.

You're completely ignoring drivers managing pace if there is no incentive to go faster, namely no more positions to be gained.

Qualifying is a skill. Race starts are a skill. Overtaking is a skill.

Exactly, they ran completely different races in Spain so a true comparison is impossible.

I'd take finishing position over flashes of pace advantages every time.

What has surprised me is how good Russell has been with tyre management relative to Hamilton, I've never believed Hamilton is special in that regard, it's just he had a teammate in Bottas who was terrible at it.