BAR out of the WC?

[dumrick]

Probably the most nonsensical post i've ever had the misfortune to read on this site.

You are being very narrow-minded. Read the BAR-Honda allegations document where you can find the fuel cell supplier testimony that "All F1 cars use a fuel collection system". They are crystal-clear and someone with basic technical background can understand it, then the FIA's statements start sounding illogical.
Also, it's not "bad design" or "ballast". Anyone that knows something of hydraulics understands the need of a collector in a pressurised system.

When Tyrrell introduced lead spheres in the tank in the last refuelling, they only lost championship poinst, for Christ's sake!!!!

Alic01, read items 1.9, 1.10 and 2.4 of the technical regulations. You are also talking nonsense!

This is more and more Kafka-like. What has been strange was super-competitiveness from Ferrari in Imola. Someone has suggested that this case would be a cover-up for the real reasons behind Schumacher's out-of-the-blue fantastic performance. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a sharp insight.

Really, f**k the FIA and Ferrari. This is a stupid force display from the FIA, to try to persecute the teams that want a fair revenue distribution and not a Mafia-like organisation where the "capos" (read Ecclestone, Mosley and Ferrari) share the pieces of the pie as they want. Even the dictator-like Jean-Marie Balestre had a lot more decency!!!!!

Ferrari team has been nursed into F1 dominance since the 80's. And they're so stupid that they only managed to get there in the end of the 90's... only after they gave most of the relevant jobs to non-italian professionals... (Todt, Byrne, Brawn, Goto, Schumacher...)!!!!!!

[jaslfc]

what rubbish u talkin.. it seems like u have been reading abit too much of conspiracy novels.. I think u break the rules.. you get punished.. simple! Ferrari may have abit more influence in the last few years only because of their success and the fact that 70% of all the current f1 fans are ferrari supporters(many of which are glory hunters.. dont get me started on this topic!!) As for bar.. they should just swallow the punishment and get on with their preperation for the race in germany.. All u might know.. they may be taking more risk with the car .. if u heard jensons interview on bbc.. he said the onli goal for this season is to win races.. there has been rumours that honda wanted to get a more powerful engine and race for 1 gp just to win... and pay the price for the next gp!!

[Guest]

More likely its renault. They've been the only team to publicly say that BAR cheated, going so far as to say they deserved second last season. Okay, here's a theory. A little off the wall so it must be true.

Say what BAR did with fuel in the collector tank as being a part of the sum of "race weight" is fairly standard practice. Documentation suggests that it was done in the teams that Willis and Wilson came from, so williams and mclaren have been operating the same way. (Newey was also at williams). Representatives of both these teams also happened to observe the FIA appeal first hand, Why? they were really interested in the outcome as it directly affect how much ballast they run--they would've been illegal too, if they were hoovered.

Now assume again that it is fairly standard practice to run the collector tank with the fuel in it as part of the race weight--but a team develops an innovative, better system that doesn't need to run as much fuel in the collector tank this season. Breakthrough, right? No, it doesn't make for a competitive advantage because it has become standard practice to have fuel in the collector tank and get out scott free in post race scrutineering, so the ballast that they run would be the same.

So, say you're this team that developed the improved innovative system, how do you make it a competitive advantage? Tip off the FIA, that there is a team that runs with fuel in the collector as part of the weight in post race scrutineering. Remember the FIA doesn't know that this has become the standard practice/hasn't cared one whit about the procedure for over a decade (1994 or so). Also assume the team that developed the system has made a strong advance this year, has a comfortable lead in the championship, but BAR Honda is coming on strong after a dismal start, so will take away some points, and podiums, in fact beat the team to second last season....

[Scuderia_Russ]

Probably the most nonsensical post i've ever had the misfortune to read on this site.

You are being very narrow-minded. Read the BAR-Honda allegations document where you can find the fuel cell supplier testimony that "All F1 cars use a fuel collection system". They are crystal-clear and someone with basic technical background can understand it, then the FIA's statements start sounding illogical.
Also, it's not "bad design" or "ballast". Anyone that knows something of hydraulics understands the need of a collector in a pressurised system.

When Tyrrell introduced lead spheres in the tank in the last refuelling, they only lost championship poinst, for Christ's sake!!!!

Alic01, read items 1.9, 1.10 and 2.4 of the technical regulations. You are also talking nonsense!

This is more and more Kafka-like. What has been strange was super-competitiveness from Ferrari in Imola. Someone has suggested that this case would be a cover-up for the real reasons behind Schumacher's out-of-the-blue fantastic performance. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a sharp insight.

Really, f**k the FIA and Ferrari. This is a stupid force display from the FIA, to try to persecute the teams that want a fair revenue distribution and not a Mafia-like organisation where the "capos" (read Ecclestone, Mosley and Ferrari) share the pieces of the pie as they want. Even the dictator-like Jean-Marie Balestre had a lot more decency!!!!!

Ferrari team has been nursed into F1 dominance since the 80's. And they're so stupid that they only managed to get there in the end of the 90's... only after they gave most of the relevant jobs to non-italian professionals... (Todt, Byrne, Brawn, Goto, Schumacher...)!!!!!!

I was refering to the guest post from Sawtooth. I have already stated that i think both sides have a good argument.

[Alic01]

Dumrick, i am not trying to be argumentative just merely expressing my opinions.

In my knowledge of hydraulic systems i would have classified the entire fuel 'reservoir' as a collector, i am aware of no hydraulic pump which required a seperate 'collector' within a 'reservoir' in order to function. The implementation of a seperate small confined suction point can in fact be problematic from a contaminant seperation point of view as the current created by the pump will draw all solid debris into the confined area and ultimately into the pump and onto the system.

I am in full agreement that all open loop pressurised fluid systems must maintain a fully flooded suction port at all times and due to the forces in an F1 car this may require the suction port to be at the lowest point of the reservoir.

One interesting thing was that on ITV they showed the inside of the reservoir and the port to the collector was approximately 3" from the base of the reservoir. After seeing this i wondered if i had got the wrong end of the stick and the collector was actually in the pressure line acting similar to a common rail diesel system.

I would appreciate it if anyone could give me an explanation of the function served by the collector. If it aids suction the port would appear to me to be in the wrong place, i just cannot see the benefit.

With regard to the FIA's punishment i believe that if they truly found them guilty of cheating they should be out for the year. It is obvious from the punishment given that complete guilt was not established and therefore this seems to be a big 'Dont do it again & dont any other teams try it either!', on that basis the judgement is probably harsh.

I do believe that JB only should have lost his points for the Imola race as according to the FIA BAR could not 100% prove that the car did not run underweight at any point and was ultimately measured without fuel at under 600kg.

Another interesting point is that even with the fuel in the collector removed Takus car must have still weighed 600kg as his car was not under question. Not really fair on him whether he or Jensen knew or not!

Taku's car ballast must have brought the car up to 600kg which just adds to the massive grey area as you would expect both cars to be dead on 600kg either wet or dry dependent upon BAR's argued interpretation.

I openly admit that i have limited knowledge (but massive interest) in the technical aspects of formula 1 and continue to learn a lot from you all on this forum.

[Guest]

Taku's car was DQ'ed because the FIA took them at their word that both cars were identical.

The FIA should have codified the 600 kg dry weight rule for the 2005 season upon hearing the rumors of teams running underweight. This would in effect be a rule change as up to imola the precedent for 10+ years has been that teams have been running with fuel in the collector being counted towards the minimum weight. If a team didn't do this they would be running at a handicap.

Isn't it weird that no car has ever been weighed without fuel for over the last ten years? How do they know if any team is in compliance. Every car should be weighed before fuelling to see that it is in compliance. It wouldn't be hard to implement this. As it is there is no effort to show that the competitors are at an even playing field. The F in F1 stand for farce.

farce     n.

A light dramatic work in which highly improbable plot situations, exaggerated characters, and often slapstick elements are used for humorous effect.

The broad or spirited humor characteristic of such works.

A ludicrous, empty show; a mockery: The fixed election was a farce.

[Alic01]

I agree with you guest and it ties up with what Scuderia Russ was saying where there are valid arguments to both sides.

Is running dry weights below 600kg and fuel in the colector to bring it up to weight legal?? Thats up to interpretation.

Can the FIA impose sanctions against the first team they 'caught'?? I would guess that if a dry car weighs less than 600kg then under the current vauge rules, yes they can.

Is every team doing it, or at least something similar?? Almost definitely yes.

Many people can speculate as to why they picked on BAR but i think the polotics of F1 runs so deep its frightening. I personally feel that all of this stuff is really starting to bring the sport down.

Im happy to see Ferrari struggling but im also happy to see that Renault and even BAR have got their stuff together even though im a Williams fan. Its good for the sport and to be honest its better for me on a Sunday sat on the couch watching. I hope Ferrari get their stuff together and come back because its a result of hard work and determination - the real backbone of the sport.

If you ask me in 2008 its not Ferrari who need to go simply becasue no one else was good enough to beat them its Max for all this crap that is turning the bit between the races into more of a talking point than the racing itself.