2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[AR3-GP]

,Lecrerc still need to prove consistency during the season,

I dont think he needs to prove anything. He is at least trying, and his mistakes come when he's pushing close the gap created by the under-performing car or the team...

Spot On.

i dont get why this " False " narrative is being peddled time and time again that he is not consistent or he makes mistakes.

if we analyse Max's season,
He locked his tyres in Bahrain, Australia
spun off in spain & singapur,
360 at Hungary ,
crashed into lewis at Brazil
qualy mistake at Silverstone, Hungary
we can just go on. Just because he won nobody is taking about it.

if we analyze Sainz , Perez, Lewis we can have similar findings. it baffles me that none of these guys get labeled same way. Sainz might have made more mistakes or lest equal but nobody says much.

also as you mentioned just throwing away your car and making a mistake is different from trying to push it too hard and making a mistake. Not that im defending it , the driver will get punished for both just as Leclerc got punishment for imola & France. he lost the momentum. im against the narrative.

In these last couple of pages alone, the focus has largely been on the issues of Binotto's leadership and Sainz.

[Andres125sx]

Yes Carlos is useless, he can´t fight Lecrerc, he can´t fight Max, he´s not a team player, he doesn´t have any race pace, he´s slow in qualy, and the guy who hired him should be inmediately fired. This is what have been said in last posts about Sainz

None of this is wrong, except for the firing part.

[AR3-GP]

Yes Carlos is useless, he can´t fight Lecrerc, he can´t fight Max, he´s not a team player, he doesn´t have any race pace, he´s slow in qualy, and the guy who hired him should be inmediately fired. This is what have been said in last posts about Sainz

None of this is wrong, except for the firing part.

To be clear, calling Carlos "useless" is not correct either. I missed that, my apologies.

But yes, he can't fight Leclerc or Max. He's not a team player, but neither are Verstappen or Leclerc when push comes to shove. No champion is a team player, so that's not neccesarily the bad part.

The problem is being slower in qualifying and races most of the time. It's essentially a Hamilton Rosberg type of dynamic, except I think Rosberg is faster than Sainz.

[mzso]

Sainz should be out from Ferrari. As Vasseur in charge for next year, I think Botta is right choice for Ferrari in 2024.

Sainz will be a fine Bottas/Barrichello/Massa.

[mzso]

This brings up a good point for the difference between great drivers and good drivers.

Most of the time Lewis and max when they make a mistake they still manage to come back and get a good result and sometimes still win, With Sainz for example a mistake ends the race or they get into a position where they cant recover and get a poor result and I'm guessing that is the reason why its more noticed

It only brings up that how lucky some drivers are. And that luck is still a huge factor. If the car properly went into reverse Leclerc could save the French GP for a 3-5. position. But he had no such luck.

[AR3-GP]

This brings up a good point for the difference between great drivers and good drivers.

Most of the time Lewis and max when they make a mistake they still manage to come back and get a good result and sometimes still win, With Sainz for example a mistake ends the race or they get into a position where they cant recover and get a poor result and I'm guessing that is the reason why its more noticed

It only brings up that how lucky some drivers are. And that luck is still a huge factor. If the car properly went into reverse Leclerc could save the French GP for a 3-5. position. But he had no such luck.

It's a somewhat impressive feat to manage to find and hit a barrier at Paul Ricard.... so I find it somewhat ironic to be worried about the reverse gear and the bad luck of not finding it. That kind of spin at speed in most other circuits and reverse gear is the least of the problems

From that point of view I'd say it was a huge mistake, but over the season he really didn't make that many so there's no point dwelling on it. You can still win a championship with Imola and PR, provided the car and the team operations don't fall apart....

[mzso]

It's a somewhat impressive feat to manage to find and hit a barrier at Paul Ricard.... so I find it somewhat ironic to be worried about the reverse gear and the bad luck of not finding it. That kind of spin at speed in most other circuits and reverse gear is the least of the problems

Sure. However it was not the case of not finding. But reverse not working.

[JordanMugen]

This - equal treatment is the Norm in F1 is the joke of the century.

and all the sennas, shumis, vettels, lewis, Alonsos & maxs of F1 world are laughing at this.

I can't believe there are people who actually believe this... The last duo that didn't have a clear status were Prost and Senna in McLaren and it was clear why that was. This was more than 30 years ago. Bar Rosberg, every champion since was a number 1 in that season. Rosberg won despite of his defacto number 2 status.

Not true. Even recently Hamilton, Verstappen earned their preferential treatment by vastly outperforming their teammates

Hamilton did not particularly have preferential treatment over Russell, and that is the situation Sainz is trying to establish.

Maybe Sainz is delusional but AFAIK he thinks he can be the lead driver or equal lead driver, and to be fair, with caveats, Sainz did beat Leclerc in the points once just as Russell did with Hamilton this season.

Heck even Mark Webber nearly beat Sebastian Vettel in the points to take the 2010 WDC, it just all went wrong in the last round. Whereas Rosberg indeed managed to make it happen in 2016 over Hamilton.

So Sainz's belief is likely that he can win the WDC. If Ferrari feel however that Sainz should perform a Perez-like role where he should literally back out of throttle to avoid overtaking Leclerc in the first corners for example then I think they should either inform him of such (I suspect he would and very well will leave if Vassuer establishes this scenario) or replace Sainz with a more compliant choice of number 2 driver (Schumacher? Bottas?). ...Or just make the car oversteer a lot so that Sainz beating Leclerc to poles is not a possibility in the first place!

[JordanMugen]

Saniz will out in 2024 and Botta will join ferrari for Lecrec wingman.

Ferrari signing Sainz was itself a wrong move for Ferrari ( not for sainz obviously ). No wonder its been said Binotto brought him in.

A top team like Ferrari, RB , Mercedes who fight for titles will always have priority driver. Sainz is not bad but he is not fast enough to be #1 guy. Wonder why he was signed.

IIRC Ferrari thought Sainz would be slow enough to be a clear second driver, and therefore passed on Ricciardo who they thought would be too fast for the second driver role.

So Sainz was signed for the number two role but obviously is too fast for that (at least if the car understeers enough) and even has taken some poles and beat Charles (and previously Lando) in the WDC standings.

Ironic! (As we know, it turned out that Ricciardo settled into much more of clear-cut second driver status at McLaren! Would Ricciardo have been similarly slow and a good clear second driver at Ferrari? Or would the Ferrari with good front grip have suited Ricciardo too much and allowed him to, unacceptably, challenge Leclerc?)

People saying that Ferrari erred, forget that Sainz and Norris were NOT rated that high. Sainz was beaten by Hulkenberg and Norris could barely beat Sainz... So from Ferraris point of view they WERE choosing a number two driver and avoiding an overly fast option like Riccoardo (who beat Hulkenberg who beat Sainz!).

[JordanMugen]

A top team like Ferrari, RB , Mercedes who fight for titles will always have priority driver.

Repeating a lie ad nauseam will never make it true

Correct!

If I am not mistaken both the Berger and Alesi and Massa and Raikkonen pairings had two equal lead drivers.

Maybe Raikkonen was "supposed" to be the number one driver but he simply did not build up the points to be a WDC contender in 2008, where Massa did.

The sooner Ferrari get onboard, the sooner they will deliver their first WDC in over a decade. Even if the toto directive was not introduced, Ferrari still would have lost due to intra team squabbling and lack of vision in races like Monaco and Silverstone.

There seems to be resentment to Sainz getting good results. The fact is he did win Silverstone and even outqualified Leclerc to take a pole position.

Complaints seem to be both that Sainz is too slow to be number one driver but also that Sainz is too fast to be the number two driver!

I would have no issue with Ferrari prioritising Leclerc at all times. Maybe simply making a car with a lot of oversteer would be enough to drop Sainz back, or otherwise Ferrari could replace Sainz. But to blame Sainz for being too fast for a number two and for polticking for more understeer or calling strategy shots for his best interest seems unfair.

For better or worse, Sainz (much like Perez the first time at McLaren, where he raced team number one Button very hard) is at a relatively young and ambitious stage of his career. Perhaps a Hulkenberg would be better for doing a Perez-like job of always deferring to the lead driver?

[JordanMugen]

Example, who would have put money on a new driver beating Vettel in the car he had been dominant in?

You mean Ricciardo?

Since Ricciardo had done it before, that's why I thought Leclerc coming into Ferrari had a good chance of doing so as well.

...Despite some calling for Vettel to remain as priorotised number one and therefore for Raikkonen to be kept on as dutiful number two.

[JordanMugen]

Good luck to Vasseur, he'll need it. The biggest thing he needs to do regarding teams focus and strategies is to set a clear #1 driver and focus their 2023 campaign on him. I think all Tifosi have had enough equality shenanigans since 2017...

I thought Raikkonen running ridiculously long on hopelessly slow tyres simply to block a rival was clear cut second driver status to the point of comedy, lol?

for eg. - RB asking Perez to let Max win Spanish Gp. now one might say at that point it was too early to set team orders but imagine a close season like 2021 where title was won by just 5 points. that's when even these early calls make difference. RB know how its done hence they dont waste time.

Hmm, the only reason Red Bull have such slow second drivers as Gasly, Albon, Perez is because Ricciardo left.

Otherwise they would have Daniel Ricciardo as second driver, who (if on form) would probably present the aforementioned "too fast for a number two driver problem"!

I.e., RBR have a clear second driver by circumstance rather than by deliberately choosing slow second drivers. It does work well for them at all the moment, but they are still seeking out fast options for second driver in future. Heck, RBR even made a contract offer to Lando Nortis (surely not for a "number two, must defer at all times" role?).

Just wait and see, Mercedes will have this problem with Russell. They will look silly if they always prioritise Hamilton in '23, '24 etc when Russell is right there on Hamilton's gearbox or ahead.

Edit - About Red Bull people might say oh Mark Webber was a clear number two. In 2011-2013, this is true for those seasons as he was so slow BUT in 2010, Webber nearly win the WDC! Surely not possible for a number two status driver? Webber's main problem was that he couldn't adapt to the change to Pirelli tyres.

[AR3-GP]

There seems to be resentment to Sainz getting good results. The fact is he did win Silverstone and even outqualified Leclerc to take a pole position.

Bottas also got some pole positions and won races while partnering Hamilton.

There's no resentment at all. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other for a number of reasons.... . I'm simply being objective. There's an enormous of amount investment of human resources and finances to operate this Ferrari F1 team. It's absolutely silly to play pretend with what is at stake.

[mzso]

Sainz did beat Leclerc in the points once just as Russell did with Hamilton this season.

The Ferraris were a lot futher back so one good result could seal internal rivaly. Even so Sainz only came out on top because Ferrari failed to fix damaged driveshaft in 24 hours. So instead of a Leclerc win we got a Sainz second place.

[F1NAC]

There seems to be resentment to Sainz getting good results. The fact is he did win Silverstone and even outqualified Leclerc to take a pole position.

It is a fact, but also the fact is that the from top5 the slowest driver by pace won. He was lucky.