The theory that Red Bull found something in the winter that prompted them to change their concept can be safely banished to the realm of fairy tales, because it would have been impossible for a team to overturn its entire concept in the winter, even before the budget cap. The monocoque, which is essential for any concept changes, is defined in July and August, and things like the transmission or radiator are already ready in October. So overturning the concept in the middle of winter is completely impossible.Venturiation wrote: ↑05 Feb 2023, 14:58Redbull can remove sidepods and become the fastest because they don’t have porpoising
Another theory what if Redbull had to change alot their concept and don’t want to show anything to us?
During the winter they found something unseen by others and they had 5o do anyway the show for the ford sponsoring so they showed last year car
I am not fueling furher that Red Bull have changed the concept, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility considering the fact that, both Red Bull and Ferrari stopped development of their 2022 contenders right after Summer. It's not an absolute mandate that the Monocoque need to change for an aerodynamic concept change and within the existing design of the monocoque, there are possibilities of going for a different concept. But then like I said, they had time since summer to change the monocoque if that was necessary.Andi76 wrote: ↑08 Feb 2023, 08:46The theory that Red Bull found something in the winter that prompted them to change their concept can be safely banished to the realm of fairy tales, because it would have been impossible for a team to overturn its entire concept in the winter, even before the budget cap. The monocoque, which is essential for any concept changes, is defined in July and August, and things like the transmission or radiator are already ready in October. So overturning the concept in the middle of winter is completely impossible.Venturiation wrote: ↑05 Feb 2023, 14:58Redbull can remove sidepods and become the fastest because they don’t have porpoising
Another theory what if Redbull had to change alot their concept and don’t want to show anything to us?
During the winter they found something unseen by others and they had 5o do anyway the show for the ford sponsoring so they showed last year car
Certainly Red Bull doesn't want to show some things, just like in 2022, but the concept has certainly not been overturned. It's not technically possible. It's just that Red Bull doesn't want to reveal anything. That's why they didn't present the new car. The same thing was done in 2022. But that's all there is to it.
That they would win anyway, even with a Zeropod design, because they don't have porpoising - porpoising pretty much everyone already had a handle on before the summer break....
If this happened in the summer, I agree with you. What I was saying, since you could understand this, is that you don't suddenly find something in the middle of winter and then overturn your entire concept and redesign it. It's not possible to do something like that.mendis wrote: ↑08 Feb 2023, 11:02I am not fueling furher that Red Bull have changed the concept, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility considering the fact that, both Red Bull and Ferrari stopped development of their 2022 contenders right after Summer. It's not an absolute mandate that the Monocoque need to change for an aerodynamic concept change and within the existing design of the monocoque, there are possibilities of going for a different concept. But then like I said, they had time since summer to change the monocoque if that was necessary.Andi76 wrote: ↑08 Feb 2023, 08:46The theory that Red Bull found something in the winter that prompted them to change their concept can be safely banished to the realm of fairy tales, because it would have been impossible for a team to overturn its entire concept in the winter, even before the budget cap. The monocoque, which is essential for any concept changes, is defined in July and August, and things like the transmission or radiator are already ready in October. So overturning the concept in the middle of winter is completely impossible.Venturiation wrote: ↑05 Feb 2023, 14:58Redbull can remove sidepods and become the fastest because they don’t have porpoising
Another theory what if Redbull had to change alot their concept and don’t want to show anything to us?
During the winter they found something unseen by others and they had 5o do anyway the show for the ford sponsoring so they showed last year car
Certainly Red Bull doesn't want to show some things, just like in 2022, but the concept has certainly not been overturned. It's not technically possible. It's just that Red Bull doesn't want to reveal anything. That's why they didn't present the new car. The same thing was done in 2022. But that's all there is to it.
That they would win anyway, even with a Zeropod design, because they don't have porpoising - porpoising pretty much everyone already had a handle on before the summer break....
It is very unlikely that Red Bull have changed concept, that is not how Newey operates. Recall the evolution of the RB3 into the RB4. Then the evolution of the 2009 new regulation RB5 into the 6 through 9. Similar examples can be found at Leyton House, Williams and McLaren too.
Newey isn’t the one dictating the concept, they are a teamJordanMugen wrote: ↑08 Feb 2023, 11:32It is very unlikely that Red Bull have changed concept, that is not how Newey operates. Recall the evolution of the RB3 into the RB4. Then the evolution of the 2009 new regulation RB5 into the 6 through 9.
Agreed, but it doesn't take a genius to work out it is better (more efficient) to improve upon a very good design than to start again from scratch!Venturiation wrote: ↑08 Feb 2023, 11:34Newey isn’t the one dictating the concept, they are a teamJordanMugen wrote: ↑08 Feb 2023, 11:32It is very unlikely that Red Bull have changed concept, that is not how Newey operates. Recall the evolution of the RB3 into the RB4. Then the evolution of the 2009 new regulation RB5 into the 6 through 9.
I don't think this is correct. The monocoque only needs changes if the A-surface of the new concept intersects the old monocoque. This is a monocoque:Andi76 wrote: ↑08 Feb 2023, 08:46The monocoque, which is essential for any concept changes, is defined in July and August, and things like the transmission or radiator are already ready in October. So overturning the concept in the middle of winter is completely impossible.Venturiation wrote: ↑05 Feb 2023, 14:58Redbull can remove sidepods and become the fastest because they don’t have porpoising
Another theory what if Redbull had to change alot their concept and don’t want to show anything to us?
During the winter they found something unseen by others and they had 5o do anyway the show for the ford sponsoring so they showed last year car
I agree and it makes you wonder why there are regulations changes for the upcoming season.Andi76 wrote: ↑08 Feb 2023, 08:46Venturiation wrote: ↑05 Feb 2023, 14:58Redbull can remove sidepods and become the fastest because they don’t have porpoising
Another theory what if Redbull had to change alot their concept and don’t want to show anything to us?
During the winter they found something unseen by others and they had 5o do anyway the show for the ford sponsoring so they showed last year car
That they would win anyway, even with a Zeropod design, because they don't have porpoising - porpoising pretty much everyone already had a handle on before the summer break....
I think you and I have different views on what a concept change is. You are talking about modifications in aerodynamics, not a real concept change. A "concept change" in my book is including the car as a whole. And if you completely change your concept, that usually means profound changes in quite a few things. Driver position, seat position, suspension points, engine mounts, radiator positioning and layout, transmission position and shape, packaging. And you can't do that without a completely new monocoque. What you are talking about are more or less nothing else than aerodynamic modifications. And even there it gets difficult at a certain point. For example, profound changes to the diffuser. To make really deep changes here you usually need a new gearbox if you want to make other deep changes to the rear end, because otherwise there are too few possibilities, since this dictates crucial things regarding space and room in the rear end area. And to design and build a completely new transmission - that takes time, it's not done and ready in four weeks. And it doesn't stop there, because that entails other necessary changes. And here I don't even have to speak to then different torsional and torsional stiffness requirements that might be needed. There's a reason why no team overturns its entire concept in the middle of winter or during the season.AR3-GP wrote: ↑08 Feb 2023, 16:25I don't think this is correct. The monocoque only needs changes if the A-surface of the new concept intersects the old monocoque. This is a monocoque:Andi76 wrote: ↑08 Feb 2023, 08:46The monocoque, which is essential for any concept changes, is defined in July and August, and things like the transmission or radiator are already ready in October. So overturning the concept in the middle of winter is completely impossible.Venturiation wrote: ↑05 Feb 2023, 14:58Redbull can remove sidepods and become the fastest because they don’t have porpoising
Another theory what if Redbull had to change alot their concept and don’t want to show anything to us?
During the winter they found something unseen by others and they had 5o do anyway the show for the ford sponsoring so they showed last year car
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVe4UULW4AA-Wn-.jpg
The entire front wing, and the entire rear section of the car are not included in it. A team could have a completely new sidepod, gearbox, diffuser, and rear floor without changing the monocoque.
Mercedes showed up with two different sidepods last year....Teams like Alpine, Williams, and Aston Martin had dramatic in-season transformations.
Would you not consider the A-Spec AMR22 and the B-Spec AMR22 to be a concept change?Andi76 wrote: ↑08 Feb 2023, 22:12I think you and I have different views on what a concept change is. You are talking about modifications in aerodynamics, not a real concept change. A "concept change" in my book is including the car as a whole. And if you completely change your concept, that usually means profound changes in quite a few things. Driver position, seat position, suspension points, engine mounts, radiator positioning and layout, transmission position and shape, packaging. And you can't do that without a completely new monocoque.AR3-GP wrote: ↑08 Feb 2023, 16:25I don't think this is correct. The monocoque only needs changes if the A-surface of the new concept intersects the old monocoque. This is a monocoque:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVe4UULW4AA-Wn-.jpg
The entire front wing, and the entire rear section of the car are not included in it. A team could have a completely new sidepod, gearbox, diffuser, and rear floor without changing the monocoque.
Mercedes showed up with two different sidepods last year....Teams like Alpine, Williams, and Aston Martin had dramatic in-season transformations.
Was it the teams who got a handle on porpoising, or did the hotter summer months and tracks at elevation resulting in slightly lower air density help hide the phenomenon? As far as I could tell, RBR were the only ones that had less bouncing consistently regardless of conditions.Andi76 wrote: ↑08 Feb 2023, 08:46The theory that Red Bull found something in the winter that prompted them to change their concept can be safely banished to the realm of fairy tales, because it would have been impossible for a team to overturn its entire concept in the winter, even before the budget cap. The monocoque, which is essential for any concept changes, is defined in July and August, and things like the transmission or radiator are already ready in October. So overturning the concept in the middle of winter is completely impossible.Venturiation wrote: ↑05 Feb 2023, 14:58Redbull can remove sidepods and become the fastest because they don’t have porpoising
Another theory what if Redbull had to change alot their concept and don’t want to show anything to us?
During the winter they found something unseen by others and they had 5o do anyway the show for the ford sponsoring so they showed last year car
Certainly Red Bull doesn't want to show some things, just like in 2022, but the concept has certainly not been overturned. It's not technically possible. It's just that Red Bull doesn't want to reveal anything. That's why they didn't present the new car. The same thing was done in 2022. But that's all there is to it.
That they would win anyway, even with a Zeropod design, because they don't have porpoising - porpoising pretty much everyone already had a handle on before the summer break....