2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[Ground Effect]

The top 3 are the top 3 in large part due to the fact that they run their own engine programmes. As fantastic a chassis builder Red Bull are, they didn't have a sniff of the Championships until they became a works team. It's just the way it is under these rules. We all might think things will change in 2026, but you can't be certain. I'm in support of McLaren pushing for a works deal, but not necessarily Honda, not that I would mind. But a works deal is that final piece of the puzzle. If it does work with Honda, I hope the stars align for Andretti to get on the grid and be a 2nd team using Honda.

[haza]

Realistically Honda can go to 2 teams McLaren or Williams, what I can see happening is McLaren become the works team with Honda supplying to Williams in a customer deal no saying any of this will happen but just my 2 cents

[Ground Effect]

Realistically Honda can go to 2 teams McLaren or Williams, what I can see happening is McLaren become the works team with Honda supplying to Williams in a customer deal no saying any of this will happen but just my 2 cents

Aston Martin could be an option as well,

[mwillems]

Given the Mercedes Shareholding of AM, the technical co-operation between the AM Car company and Merc, Toto's shareholding and the friendship between Toto and Stroll, it is probably less likely that this would happen, but never say never. Business is business.

I'd like to see Honda come back if only because maybe they will also bring some cash with them as well as the engine.
Can't say I'm fussed right now about having a works deal, I don't see how this really adds much to our competitiveness, it just adds a little prestige as far as I can see.

[McL-H]

Ron Dennis (McLaren Legend) said that to win a championship McLaren need a works deal. I believe that still to be the case. Not sure whether success in F1 is a priority to McLaren, but if it is, they should be talking to the likes of Honda and Porsche.

[daren_p]

Ron Dennis (McLaren Legend) said that to win a championship McLaren need a works deal. I believe that still to be the case. Not sure whether success in F1 is a priority to McLaren, but if it is, they should be talking to the likes of Honda and Porsche.

When Ron said that, the rule set was completely different. At that time, yes he was probably 100% (or close to) correct, at the current time, this may not be the case.

[SmallSoldier]

The top 3 are the top 3 in large part due to the fact that they run their own engine programmes. As fantastic a chassis builder Red Bull are, they didn't have a sniff of the Championships until they became a works team. It's just the way it is under these rules. We all might think things will change in 2026, but you can't be certain. I'm in support of McLaren pushing for a works deal, but not necessarily Honda, not that I would mind. But a works deal is that final piece of the puzzle. If it does work with Honda, I hope the stars align for Andretti to get on the grid and be a 2nd team using Honda.

Let’s quantify the advantage of a works Team… What are the advantages? Beyond a bit more freedom in regards to packaging, what else is there to be gained? A works team doesn’t have more power than a customer team, they don’t have access to different maps or deployment strategies, reliability is the same.

In today’s F1 I don’t see why a customer team couldn’t be successful and win championships… If McLaren creates a capable chassis, they will fight for it… Been a customer team doesn’t mean that you can’t win championships, while been a works team doesn’t mean that you will win them (McLaren - Honda, Red Bull - Renault)… Ferrari has been a works team forever, how many championships have they won lately?

[Ground Effect]

The top 3 are the top 3 in large part due to the fact that they run their own engine programmes. As fantastic a chassis builder Red Bull are, they didn't have a sniff of the Championships until they became a works team. It's just the way it is under these rules. We all might think things will change in 2026, but you can't be certain. I'm in support of McLaren pushing for a works deal, but not necessarily Honda, not that I would mind. But a works deal is that final piece of the puzzle. If it does work with Honda, I hope the stars align for Andretti to get on the grid and be a 2nd team using Honda.

Let’s quantify the advantage of a works Team… What are the advantages? Beyond a bit more freedom in regards to packaging, what else is there to be gained? A works team doesn’t have more power than a customer team, they don’t have access to different maps or deployment strategies, reliability is the same.

In today’s F1 I don’t see why a customer team couldn’t be successful and win championships… If McLaren creates a capable chassis, they will fight for it… Been a customer team doesn’t mean that you can’t win championships, while been a works team doesn’t mean that you will win them (McLaren - Honda, Red Bull - Renault)… Ferrari has been a works team forever, how many championships have they won lately?

But that's the thing, every advantage in F1 is significant. The time alone saved in planning and design could be invaluable. With engines more or less converging, packaging is probably more important than ever. There's no way McLaren can have a better packaging rhan Mercedes, which could impact design philosophy.

[SmallSoldier]

The top 3 are the top 3 in large part due to the fact that they run their own engine programmes. As fantastic a chassis builder Red Bull are, they didn't have a sniff of the Championships until they became a works team. It's just the way it is under these rules. We all might think things will change in 2026, but you can't be certain. I'm in support of McLaren pushing for a works deal, but not necessarily Honda, not that I would mind. But a works deal is that final piece of the puzzle. If it does work with Honda, I hope the stars align for Andretti to get on the grid and be a 2nd team using Honda.

Let’s quantify the advantage of a works Team… What are the advantages? Beyond a bit more freedom in regards to packaging, what else is there to be gained? A works team doesn’t have more power than a customer team, they don’t have access to different maps or deployment strategies, reliability is the same.

In today’s F1 I don’t see why a customer team couldn’t be successful and win championships… If McLaren creates a capable chassis, they will fight for it… Been a customer team doesn’t mean that you can’t win championships, while been a works team doesn’t mean that you will win them (McLaren - Honda, Red Bull - Renault)… Ferrari has been a works team forever, how many championships have they won lately?

But that's the thing, every advantage in F1 is significant. The time alone saved in planning and design could be invaluable. With engines more or less converging, packaging is probably more important than ever. There's no way McLaren can have a better packaging rhan Mercedes, which could impact design philosophy.

If Mercedes packaging is superior (from a McLaren’s point of view), copying it wouldn’t be such a hard thing to do… Packaging will depend on your concept, on whether you decide to use air to air or water to air intercoolers… If you decide to have more center cooling or relay more on your sidepods for them.

Mercedes “zero pod” concept is related to their tub concept, not their PU concept… Packaging is related to your concept, McLaren could have better packaging for their concept than Mercedes with a Mercedes engine.

A good example of this would be Renault… They raced as a Works Team, they designed their engine, had all the information and all the advantages of a works team… Nevertheless in 2018 they were beaten by their customer team (Red Bull) and in 2019 they were once again beaten by their customer team (McLaren)

Every advantage in F1 is important, I can’t argue that… But the advantage of been a works team is not one that a customer team can’t overcome… Before the budget cap, the one advantage was how much money you invest in the team (from it’s infrastructure to it’s employees) and the WCC positions more often than not reflected the expenditure (the top 3 were in those positions due to their budgets, not because of been works teams).

When Dennis made his comments regarding the need to be a works team to win, he said it because back then the works team could have access to more power, different maps, etc… Therefore if you were battling as a customer team versus the works team, you would be at a clear disadvantage all else been equal… In addition, he understood that the larger the budget, the higher the probability of winning (McLaren was one of the largest spenders in F1 when they were winning championships) and a works deal implies more funding for the team or at a minimum not having to spend on engines (like a customer team would have to).

[diffuser]

What don't you get when you buy a PU today? You don't headers, radiators and the tubing to connect all that. You can make the battery pretty much whatever shape you want and place it where you want. Right now Merc, Renault and Honda's PUs are pretty similar in shape and size. Not sure what packaging advantage you can get by building it yourself that you can't get as a non works team.

[AR3-GP]

too much stuff is being overlooked.

Look at the exhaust routing of the Mercedes PU. It has been designed for their aero package. Look at the compressor inlets. It has been designed for the W13 intercooler configuration. The engine tuning, the pressure waves in the intake system, it's all tuned around the Mercedes intake system.

What benefit is any of this to Mclaren? A power unit is not just some plug and play bit of kit. contrary to what others have said, they are not all "shaped the same" Why are people in denial? As if there is no tangible benefit in a game of splitting hairs.

[Ground Effect]

I honestly can't believe guys on here are minimising the technical advantage of a works team. Has it been narrowed over the years ? Yes, but in specific areas only. Same PU, same mappings, same software, same fuel etc. Why did McLaren suggest when they signed with Renault that they could possibly be involved in the direction of PU layout? Of course Renault downplayed this suggestion, because it would be giving away a considerable advantage.

[michl420]

I think one plus of a works team in the last maybe 10 years was that you have seen the future of the engine architecture for the next 1 or 2 years. It was possible to include it in the aero decisions. with the engine freeze this becomes less.

[Emag]

I honestly can't believe guys on here are minimising the technical advantage of a works team. Has it been narrowed over the years ? Yes, but in specific areas only. Same PU, same mappings, same software, same fuel etc. Why did McLaren suggest when they signed with Renault that they could possibly be involved in the direction of PU layout? Of course Renault downplayed this suggestion, because it would be giving away a considerable advantage.

It's easy to see why people minimize it to be honest. A works team no longer has the same advantages it had earlier in the hybrid era.

Back then Mercedes literally sold weaker engines to their customers. But also dictated packaging philosophy with design changes.

Now, the power units are frozen, it's gonna be the same PU layout until 2026. That nullifies the packaging advantage because it gives customers time to adapt.

The only advantage you get as a works team is better resource management. Expertise and man power is severely overlooked in my opinion, especially in the budget cap era.

Having a separate group of engineers driving the car design forward is quite a boost.

So yeah, works teams still got an advantage. But I also disagree with the premise of RedBull being unable to win last year if they weren't a works team. They had such a dominant car that I don't really think the advantages they got for not being a customer team were critical.

[Ground Effect]

I honestly can't believe guys on here are minimising the technical advantage of a works team. Has it been narrowed over the years ? Yes, but in specific areas only. Same PU, same mappings, same software, same fuel etc. Why did McLaren suggest when they signed with Renault that they could possibly be involved in the direction of PU layout? Of course Renault downplayed this suggestion, because it would be giving away a considerable advantage.

It's easy to see why people minimize it to be honest. A works team no longer has the same advantages it had earlier in the hybrid era.

Back then Mercedes literally sold weaker engines to their customers. But also dictated packaging philosophy with design changes.

Now, the power units are frozen, it's gonna be the same PU layout until 2026. That nullifies the packaging advantage because it gives customers time to adapt.

The only advantage you get as a works team is better resource management. Expertise and man power is severely overlooked in my opinion, especially in the budget cap era.

Having a separate group of engineers driving the car design forward is quite a boost.

So yeah, works teams still got an advantage. But I also disagree with the premise of RedBull being unable to win last year if they weren't a works team. They had such a dominant car that I don't really think the advantages they got for not being a customer team were critical.

I agree on all fronts, but we're talking about a works deal/team from 2026. The frozen engine handicap is out the window then. The lead time in knowing your PU architecture is invaluable to design, packaging and integration.