2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[Big Tea]

A huge advantage is in compromises between engine and chassis/body. Customers get the compromise made between the engine department and car department of the supplier.
Only small things probably, but I bet they add up

[AR3-GP]

I honestly can't believe guys on here are minimising the technical advantage of a works team. Has it been narrowed over the years ? Yes, but in specific areas only. Same PU, same mappings, same software, same fuel etc. Why did McLaren suggest when they signed with Renault that they could possibly be involved in the direction of PU layout? Of course Renault downplayed this suggestion, because it would be giving away a considerable advantage.

Now, the power units are frozen, it's gonna be the same PU layout until 2026. That nullifies the packaging advantage because it gives customers time to adapt.

Adapt to what? Someone else's preferred PU layout for their preferred aero layout?

They are not "adapting". They are being forced to compromise.

[JordanMugen]

So yeah, works teams still got an advantage. But I also disagree with the premise of RedBull being unable to win last year if they weren't a works team. They had such a dominant car that I don't really think the advantages they got for not being a customer team were critical.

I suppose. But the Renault engine was so unreliable in 2022, I don't see how Renault power in 2022 would have helped Red Bull's chances given Mercedes and Ferrari refuse to supply Red Bull. [Not that the Ferrari was that reliable either.]

I still disagree with McLaren's decision to move on from their excellent Renault relationship to a Mercedes relationship though. Alpine-Renault could certainly have used the extra data from having a partner team in 2021 & 2022, so it is a shame for Alpine.

[ On another note, it would be ironic if both Williams and McLaren are simultaneously Honda powered in 2026 -- exactly what didn't happen in 1988, thereby allowing McLaren such easy victories with Williams-Judd far out of contention! If only Honda had found a way to drop Lotus instead -- oh well Honda will be Honda and insist on "their" drivers, namely Piquet and Nakajima at the time. ]

[diffuser]

too much stuff is being overlooked.

Look at the exhaust routing of the Mercedes PU. It has been designed for their aero package. Look at the compressor inlets. It has been designed for the W13 intercooler configuration. The engine tuning, the pressure waves in the intake system, it's all tuned around the Mercedes intake system.

What benefit is any of this to Mclaren? A power unit is not just some plug and play bit of kit. contrary to what others have said, they are not all "shaped the same" Why are people in denial? As if there is no tangible benefit in a game of splitting hairs.

Like I said McLaren have to supply their own exhaust. You don't get that with tge PU. You can route that anywhere you want within the performance requirements that Merc give you.

Same with the intercooler, it is a rad. McLaren supply their own. Plus alot of the other stuff you mention was set like that 4 or 5 years ago or more. It isn't stuff that changes year to year.

[AR3-GP]

too much stuff is being overlooked.

Look at the exhaust routing of the Mercedes PU. It has been designed for their aero package. Look at the compressor inlets. It has been designed for the W13 intercooler configuration. The engine tuning, the pressure waves in the intake system, it's all tuned around the Mercedes intake system.

What benefit is any of this to Mclaren? A power unit is not just some plug and play bit of kit. contrary to what others have said, they are not all "shaped the same" Why are people in denial? As if there is no tangible benefit in a game of splitting hairs.

Like I said McLaren have to supply their own exhaust. You don't get that with tge PU. You can route that anywhere you want within the performance requirements that Merc give you.

Same with the intercooler, it is a rad. McLaren supply their own. Plus alot of the other stuff you mention was set like that 4 or 5 years ago or more. It isn't stuff that changes year to year.

Only the exhaust pipe behind the turbine is free. The exhaust system also includes the pipework between the cylinder head exhaust ports, and the turbine inlet. The medusa. That is what I'm referring to. This is defined by the manufacturer.

Also, I never said that Mercedes supply the intercooler or radiator.

This stuff is not trivial like you would like to believe. Mercedes already made the compromise between the power unit output level, it's geometry, and its cooling requirements. Location of oil pumps, fuel pumps, harnesses etc etc.

[diffuser]

too much stuff is being overlooked.

Look at the exhaust routing of the Mercedes PU. It has been designed for their aero package. Look at the compressor inlets. It has been designed for the W13 intercooler configuration. The engine tuning, the pressure waves in the intake system, it's all tuned around the Mercedes intake system.

What benefit is any of this to Mclaren? A power unit is not just some plug and play bit of kit. contrary to what others have said, they are not all "shaped the same" Why are people in denial? As if there is no tangible benefit in a game of splitting hairs.

Like I said McLaren have to supply their own exhaust. You don't get that with tge PU. You can route that anywhere you want within the performance requirements that Merc give you.

Same with the intercooler, it is a rad. McLaren supply their own. Plus alot of the other stuff you mention was set like that 4 or 5 years ago or more. It isn't stuff that changes year to year.

Only the exhaust pipe behind the turbine is free. The exhaust system also includes the pipework between the cylinder head exhaust ports, and the turbine inlet. The medusa. That is what I'm referring to. This is defined by the manufacturer.

Also, I never said that Mercedes supply the intercooler or radiator.

This stuff is not trivial like you would like to believe. Mercedes already made the compromise between the power unit output level, it's geometry, and its cooling requirements. Location of oil pumps, fuel pumps, harnesses etc etc.

There are always compromises, even when you're the works. Generally the choices Merc made for themselves probably work for everyone else.
The other thing is, as apposed to 2021 aero, where it was tight up against the PU. The present aero leaves a ton of space between the skin and the PU.

[AR3-GP]

Like I said McLaren have to supply their own exhaust. You don't get that with tge PU. You can route that anywhere you want within the performance requirements that Merc give you.

Same with the intercooler, it is a rad. McLaren supply their own. Plus alot of the other stuff you mention was set like that 4 or 5 years ago or more. It isn't stuff that changes year to year.

Only the exhaust pipe behind the turbine is free. The exhaust system also includes the pipework between the cylinder head exhaust ports, and the turbine inlet. The medusa. That is what I'm referring to. This is defined by the manufacturer.

Also, I never said that Mercedes supply the intercooler or radiator.

This stuff is not trivial like you would like to believe. Mercedes already made the compromise between the power unit output level, it's geometry, and its cooling requirements. Location of oil pumps, fuel pumps, harnesses etc etc.

There are always compromises, even when you're the works. Generally the choices Merc made for themselves probably work for everyone else.

and 2022 is a ringing endorsement.

[Henri]

McLaren need to hire new aero people.. top 3 teams are levels above them in chassis and aero

[genarro]

McLaren need to hire new aero people.. top 3 teams are levels above them in chassis and aero

Dont be daft mate

Maybe broaden their department yes.. But the people in the team are top notch... The infrastructure is where performance is lost.. We have heard many times that the old windtunnel has a blind spot and the other infrastructure as well... We will get there, just have a little patience.

[diffuser]

Only the exhaust pipe behind the turbine is free. The exhaust system also includes the pipework between the cylinder head exhaust ports, and the turbine inlet. The medusa. That is what I'm referring to. This is defined by the manufacturer.

Also, I never said that Mercedes supply the intercooler or radiator.

This stuff is not trivial like you would like to believe. Mercedes already made the compromise between the power unit output level, it's geometry, and its cooling requirements. Location of oil pumps, fuel pumps, harnesses etc etc.

There are always compromises, even when you're the works. Generally the choices Merc made for themselves probably work for everyone else.

and 2022 is a ringing endorsement.

Right, Merc didn't win in 2022 cause of their PU. The same PU, cause of the freeze in PUs that started in 2021, that won the constructors in 2021.

[diffuser]

McLaren need to hire new aero people.. top 3 teams are levels above them in chassis and aero

Dont be daft mate

Maybe broaden their department yes.. But the people in the team are top notch... The infrastructure is where performance is lost.. We have heard many times that the old windtunnel has a blind spot and the other infrastructure as well... We will get there, just have a little patience.

Both scenarios are possible but I don't know how we can make more than a random guess from where we are.

[Ground Effect]

There are always compromises, even when you're the works. Generally the choices Merc made for themselves probably work for everyone else.

and 2022 is a ringing endorsement.

Right, Merc didn't win in 2022 cause of their PU. The same PU, cause of the freeze in PUs that started in 2021, that won the constructors in 2021.

I thought the engine freeze took effect in 2022?

[AR3-GP]

There are always compromises, even when you're the works. Generally the choices Merc made for themselves probably work for everyone else.

and 2022 is a ringing endorsement.

Right, Merc didn't win in 2022 cause of their PU. The same PU, cause of the freeze in PUs that started in 2021, that won the constructors in 2021.

I have no idea if you are correct or not but it should be noted that there was a fuel change before the 2022 season.

Anyway, my point was Mercedes packaged their PU for aerodynamic reasons, and 2022 was not a ringing endorsement of that endeavor.

[Henri]

McLaren need to hire new aero people.. top 3 teams are levels above them in chassis and aero

Dont be daft mate

Maybe broaden their department yes.. But the people in the team are top notch... The infrastructure is where performance is lost.. We have heard many times that the old windtunnel has a blind spot and the other infrastructure as well... We will get there, just have a little patience.

Nah.. red bull has a old wind tunnel but still better than McLaren.. the infrastructure excuse is old

[PhillipM]

Nah.. red bull has a old wind tunnel but still better than McLaren.. the infrastructure excuse is old

Red Bull has a wind tunnel on site, specifically setup for race cars, which has been updated yearly.

Stop trotting this nonsense out. RB has one of, if not *the* best, tunnels going.