2023 car comparison thread

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Anyone got pics of all the cars with flow vis around the side pods/floor?

I’m at work so missed a lot of cars.

Be interesting to see the airflow around each

I've been posting flowvis pics into car threads when I see a good opportunity.

[101FlyingDutchman]

Anyone got pics of all the cars with flow vis around the side pods/floor?

I’m at work so missed a lot of cars.

Be interesting to see the airflow around each

I've been posting flowvis pics into car threads when I see a good opportunity.

Yes you have been and they’re great. Thanks for taking the time mate

[Venturiation]

Ferrari vs Redbull

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Piergiuseppe Donadoni

[Venturiation]

https://i.imgur.com/rSpSmNO.png

Piergiuseppe Donadoni

Both of them have the vertical opening but different shape
Any other team has the vertical ?

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https://i.imgur.com/rSpSmNO.png

Piergiuseppe Donadoni

Both of them have the vertical opening but different shape
Any other team has the vertical ?

Highlight the slot of Ferrari?

[Venturiation]

https://i.imgur.com/rSpSmNO.png

Piergiuseppe Donadoni

Both of them have the vertical opening but different shape
Any other team has the vertical ?

Highlight the slot of Ferrari?

Might not be the same thing

[mzso]

This may not be the right topic thread but what is the consensus on the change to 18" wheels? right or a mistake?

Nothing wrong with the wheels themselves. It's the still too high profile tires that suck. They are oversized and look ridiculous and obnoxiously heavy.

[mzso]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FppgW_5XEAA ... =4096x4096

Last years quali. They’re all faster already than those top speeds. Encouraging signs

Maybe they just found more laptime in the straights rather than the turns? So they set their cars up as such?

[PhillipM]

Nothing wrong with the wheels themselves. It's the still too high profile tires that suck. They are oversized and look ridiculous and obnoxiously heavy.

The biggest reason for the increase in weight is because of the larger diameter wheels, not because of high profile tyres. High profile tyres and smaller wheels are lighter than vice versa, and have lower MoI

[mzso]

Nothing wrong with the wheels themselves. It's the still too high profile tires that suck. They are oversized and look ridiculous and obnoxiously heavy.

The biggest reason for the increase in weight is because of the larger diameter wheels, not because of high profile tyres. High profile tyres and smaller wheels are lighter than vice versa, and have lower MoI

That's nowhere near a fact. The tires are a lot heavier than the wheels. And the tire diameter also grew and it resulted in proportionally more material since the radius is larger than the wheel diameter. Not only that, but where the most material is (tire tread), is where the increase was the largest, since it's the outermost part.
Now it would be a lot different if the tire diameter stayed the same.

That said, of course the wheels also increased in weight.

[matteosc]

Nothing wrong with the wheels themselves. It's the still too high profile tires that suck. They are oversized and look ridiculous and obnoxiously heavy.

The biggest reason for the increase in weight is because of the larger diameter wheels, not because of high profile tyres. High profile tyres and smaller wheels are lighter than vice versa, and have lower MoI

That's nowhere near a fact. The tires are a lot heavier than the wheels. And the tire diameter also grew and it resulted in proportionally more material since the radius is larger than the wheel diameter. Not only that, but where the most material is (tire tread), is where the increase was the largest, since it's the outermost part.
Now it would be a lot different if the tire diameter stayed the same.

That said, of course the wheels also increased in weight.

I do not agree with your opinion. The tire is (as material) lighter than the wheel: its stiffness is in fact obtained through the pressurized air inside. The tire is not only "rubber", but to give an idea rubber density is ~1.2 (10³ kg/m³), while aluminum is ~2.7 (10³ kg/m³). The wheel will be definitely lighter than simple aluminum, while the tire will be heavier than rubber, since there is a metallic and kevlar layer. Nevertheless, the material of the tire will be lighter than the material of the wheel. Moreover, the tire is essentially a relatively thin toroidal layer, while the wheel has a way stronger structure.

Considering the same external diameter, smaller wheel with larger tire would be lighter.

[Vanja #66]

Here's an interesting comparison of Ferrari and Mercedes :

https://postimages.org/

What surprises me here is that the W14 has a much larger rear wing. Compared to almost all other cars. This suggests that Ferrari obviously generates more downforce via the underbody than Mercedes, even though Ferrari may not have driven with the actual Bahrain wing. This brought something back to my mind - that many Italian experts in 2022 have claimed that the Mercedes concept generates less downforce than Ferrari's concept, while Mercedes itself and the British and German media have always claimed that the Zeropod concept achieves superior downforce. Mercedes could not use it only because of the higher ground clearances imposed by porpoising and had to use larger wings. But the fact that Mercedes is using very large wings again with the W14 makes me slowly doubt this version and rather believe the Italian experts. Because why should Mercedes use larger wings again with the W14 if this concept (even if it is no longer a "full" zeropod concept) brings such superior downforce values? For me this makes no sense, because if I produce superior downforce via underbody and diffuser, I use smaller wings to have less drag to have even a higher top speed.

To me it seems Mercedes is trying to keep the number of variables as low as possible right now. Also, they might have been using the biggest possible rear wing to load the car to the limit and establish what's going on with bouncing and if they can induce it with maximum loading. If this is indeed the wing they need to use in Bahrain, they'll be in big trouble in high-downforce circuits, but I doubt it. They seem to be getting on top of things quickly.

In 2022, W13's first floor was way too aggressive and had to be dialled down, so it was clear they need more downforce from the rear wing. Over the rest of the season that wing was the least of their worries, so no reason to direct resources to development of specific wings as there were many problems that needed to be sorted out ASAP.

If they did see big gains in WT for mid-wing zeropod concept, there's no doubt about that. However, since the correlation was so off, even without bouncing, it could be that W13 zeropod concept required really aggressive floor and specific conditions (pressure and vortex circulation, etc) in diffuser to show it's real benefit. Since WT testing is quite stable and it's usually very hard to introduce any kind of in-testing model movement, it wouldn't surprise me if this specific flow field seemed stable enough for them to introduce to the real car. It would also explain why other teams who said they tried this out gave up on it - if they picked up some instability "by accident" it's not surprising they abandoned it. Hopefully one day we will get to learn exactly what happened with W13 aero design.

[zioture]

[Andi76]

Here's an interesting comparison of Ferrari and Mercedes :

https://postimages.org/

What surprises me here is that the W14 has a much larger rear wing. Compared to almost all other cars. This suggests that Ferrari obviously generates more downforce via the underbody than Mercedes, even though Ferrari may not have driven with the actual Bahrain wing. This brought something back to my mind - that many Italian experts in 2022 have claimed that the Mercedes concept generates less downforce than Ferrari's concept, while Mercedes itself and the British and German media have always claimed that the Zeropod concept achieves superior downforce. Mercedes could not use it only because of the higher ground clearances imposed by porpoising and had to use larger wings. But the fact that Mercedes is using very large wings again with the W14 makes me slowly doubt this version and rather believe the Italian experts. Because why should Mercedes use larger wings again with the W14 if this concept (even if it is no longer a "full" zeropod concept) brings such superior downforce values? For me this makes no sense, because if I produce superior downforce via underbody and diffuser, I use smaller wings to have less drag to have even a higher top speed.

To me it seems Mercedes is trying to keep the number of variables as low as possible right now. Also, they might have been using the biggest possible rear wing to load the car to the limit and establish what's going on with bouncing and if they can induce it with maximum loading. If this is indeed the wing they need to use in Bahrain, they'll be in big trouble in high-downforce circuits, but I doubt it. They seem to be getting on top of things quickly.

In 2022, W13's first floor was way too aggressive and had to be dialled down, so it was clear they need more downforce from the rear wing. Over the rest of the season that wing was the least of their worries, so no reason to direct resources to development of specific wings as there were many problems that needed to be sorted out ASAP.

If they did see big gains in WT for mid-wing zeropod concept, there's no doubt about that. However, since the correlation was so off, even without bouncing, it could be that W13 zeropod concept required really aggressive floor and specific conditions (pressure and vortex circulation, etc) in diffuser to show it's real benefit. Since WT testing is quite stable and it's usually very hard to introduce any kind of in-testing model movement, it wouldn't surprise me if this specific flow field seemed stable enough for them to introduce to the real car. It would also explain why other teams who said they tried this out gave up on it - if they picked up some instability "by accident" it's not surprising they abandoned it. Hopefully one day we will get to learn exactly what happened with W13 aero design.

Sounds reasonable. Willem Toet said a few weeks ago that one reason for Mercedes problems might have been the rolling road of their WT. He explained that at Sauber they use a rolling road that is actually rough like a road surface. Mercedes uses what looks like a completely smooth surface. This of course means that there is a (relatively) big difference to reality on the track, especially in this area. He thinks it is quite possible that this could be the reason why Mercedes had more problems than others to "see" certain things concerning the underbody in the wind tunnel, or that therefore there were bigger differences between wind tunnel and reality.