What if the breakaway happens?

[ISLAMATRON]

FOTA already has the power to affect the rules, look how they stopped the winner take all proposal... and castrated KERS. They got the refueling ban they wanted, and he 8 engine rule was their poposal... so what do they really want because they already have power over the rule... just not absolute power.

[hulmerist]

FOTA already has the power to affect the rules, look how they stopped the winner take all proposal... and castrated KERS. They got the refueling ban they wanted, and he 8 engine rule was their poposal... so what do they really want because they already have power over the rule... just not absolute power.

they don't have power though for the issue at hand, mosley has quite cleverly effectively forced the teams into the cap since they can't justify spending all that money when the performance will be equalled for the budget capped teams

a reasonable stepped budget cap over a few years would've probably been accepted pretty easily by fota to begin with, but mosley had to assert his authority (because he's like that) and we're now left with this situation where both parties can't afford to lose face

mosley is probably universally disliked amongst fota as well for being a general douchebag which could also come into play

[WhiteBlue]

Some thoughts of Mike Lawrence at Pittpass. Abreviated by ..... where it has no relevance to the current situation. find original here:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... fes_page=3

When the remaining nine members of FOTA signed up for the 2010 season, I really did think that that peace had broken out in Formula One. Silly me. There was a catch, there always is a catch, but I was taken in.

The catch is that FOTA wants to lay down conditions, which is much the same as saying that it wants to over-ride the FIA and determine some of the rules. A rule is a condition and vice versa. It is a condition, for example, that to compete in Formula One, you must use a 2.4-litre V8 engine restricted to 18,000 rpm......

As part of its sabre rattling, Ferrari got hoity toity and sneered at some of the outfits which have expressed a desire to enter F1 next year. The fact is that the World Championship will still be the World Championship with or without Ferrari.

At the end of 1951, Alfa Romeo announced its withdrawal from motor sport. BRM could not be relied on to turn up to races and French firms such as Lago-Talbot could offer no competition since their government had imposed swingeing taxes on all manufacturers in order to pay for a welfare programme. In 1952 and '53, the World Championship was run to Formula Two though there were still non-championship F1 races on the calendar.

The World Championship did not lose status by being run to Formula Two, in fact it benefited by the number and diversity of entrants.

On 1st January, 1961, every 1500cc F2 car woke up to find itself transformed into an F1 car. There were 22 F1 races in 1961, though only eight counted for the World Championship. There was Formula One everywhere, often with the very best drivers.

Nobody said that these were only Formula Two cars with a new name, the World Championship bestows its own magic.................

Despite its special privileges, previously a well-kept secret, Ferrari sneers at teams who want to be in Formula One and that is not sporting behaviour.....

If Ferrari withdrew from Formula One it would leave a large gap, right until the start of the next race. The sport has lost great teams in the past and yet survived. No team or individual is bigger than any sport. No team or individual must be allowed to think that they have special rights within a sport.....

Ferrari will always be welcome, but on the same terms as every other team. It is a scandal that Ferrari gets paid more and has a veto. It is scandalous that Ferrari thinks it may mock aspiring teams such as Lola. which has survived in the world's toughest market, the manufacture of production racing cars, for more than fifty years. More than fifty years, that is something Ferrari never managed to do.

Just as I've had it with the whingeing from the Hamilton camp, so I've had it with Ferrari. Formula One should be about racing, not about threats, cheap jibes, and the behaviour of an opera diva.

It is nonsense to say that Formula One needs Ferrari. We currently have Formula One without Ferrari, unless you count a single podium finish. Some of their antics, however, have been amusing going on comical.

As Bernie himself has said, Ferrari was bought. There are some unpleasant words to describe people who can be bought. There is also the matter that anyone who offers a bribe is likely to accept one otherwise bribery would not enter their head.

Mike Lawrence
mike@pitpass.com

I do not have much to add but that Mike did not in fact follow the money in this case. I rather think that this time it is about egos as Michael Schmidt thinks. It all started with the veto that all teams collectively had until 2007.

The leading teams used to have the power to stop anything they did not like with a minority veto. Unilateral changes by FIA were only possible on a safety basis.

With the attachment #5 rules in effect since April 2008 they only have a majority vote and that is also subject to WMSC approval. Ferrari through their continuing veto agreement with the FIA enjoyed considerably more power (effectively what a group of teams used to have until the end of 2007).

Then Luca lost his nice job at the Italian industry representation (Confindustria) and it must have been like a kick in the stones to have his realm reduced to the nitty gritty world of a race team cum sports car department. Ego wise it would be much nicer to be the mover and shaker behind the F1 scene. I guess he fell into that trap (having this nice veto) and it sounds pretty logical that he told Mosley to sort out the bloody DDD issue so that Ferrari could go on winning as they were used to.

Against all expectations Mosley did not follow the hint from Maranello this time. It appears a bit strange because the DDD loop hole was against the spirit of technical rule changes which the FIA had the OWG commissioned to refine and implement. I thought it was rather odd to have Brawn GP upset the old apple cart and embarrasse the leading teams. In the light of a developing power struggle between Montezemolo and Mosley it made some sense though. If you are challenged kick the guy on the other side hard in the balls and he is much less likely to bother you next time around. This could perhaps describe Mosley's view of the challenge by Montezemolo. Max doesn't enjoy to be told what to do so that other people can go on and be famous.

From there it all went down a predictable path. I hope you have enjoyed the bed time story. Do not take it too serious. It may or may not have happened that way.

[kilcoo316]

If a breakaway happens, I would follow it.


It would be at the historic circuits, at cheaper gate prices, with no Bernie or Max f**king things up.


Formula 1 (the series) would quickly die IMO. The two numptys (Bernie & Max) are trading on a massive bluff.

[Ciro Pabón]

...Just as I've had it with the whingeing from the Hamilton camp, so I've had it with Ferrari. Formula One should be about racing, not about threats, cheap jibes, and the behaviour of an opera diva.

It is nonsense to say that Formula One needs Ferrari. We currently have Formula One without Ferrari, unless you count a single podium finish. Some of their antics, however, have been amusing going on comical.
...

Mike Lawrence
mike@pitpass.com

Well, it's Pitp*ss's Mike Lawrence, what do you expect?

Lawrence ready to write a serious article


However, a good natured man like me, always attribute this to a misunderstanding. This is what happens when Domenicali and Mosley speak to each other:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwz0CzEXUII[/youtube]

See? It's just a language problem... Domenicali says "I want two pieces on my table" and Mosley answers "You better not piss on the table".

[flynfrog]

If a breakaway happens, I would follow it.


It would be at the historic circuits, at cheaper gate prices, with no Bernie or Max f**king things up.


Formula 1 (the series) would quickly die IMO. The two numptys (Bernie & Max) are trading on a massive bluff.

where the circuts keep most of the gate money
the tv rights get there money from commercials
the teams get there money from sponsors
the regulating body is paid by teh entry fees.

[Conceptual]

If a breakaway happens, I would follow it.


It would be at the historic circuits, at cheaper gate prices, with no Bernie or Max f**king things up.


Formula 1 (the series) would quickly die IMO. The two numptys (Bernie & Max) are trading on a massive bluff.

where the circuts keep most of the gate money
the tv rights get there money from commercials
the teams get there money from sponsors
the regulating body is paid by teh entry fees.

This is exactly why Bernie would be the perfect partner to FOTA if they break away.

Bernie will ALWAYS welcome more money. It isn't like he would have to quit being the CRH for F1. If anything, it would simply be an expansion of the Eccelstone business.

Bernie would not have much problem putting together 18 races, TV coverage and race sponsorship, ESPECIALLY with Ferrari, McLaren and Co with current drivers on the ticket. He could easily weave it so the new series and F1 are not in direct TV timeslot competition. There are enough every-other-week races in F1 to fill in the off week, thus DOUBLING the racing for the fans as well as exposure for the sponsors.

The only problem that I see in this is if the sponsors all followed FOTA to a new series, there would need to be ALOT of new sponsors found for F1, as I doubt that many of the current sponsors would be willing to sponsor both series'.

I think that Bernie and FOTA would get along well if things were worked out ahead of time, like what the responsibilities of each party is, and a Concorde was signed giving stability to the rules as well as the money distribution.

All in all, Bernie could be the best thing to add to the FOTA partnership if there is a breakaway series. Remember, it is just business, and even people who hate each other will often get along VERY well when they are making millions in the partnership.

[FGD]

If the eight or nine teams that make up FOTA do break-away, who's to say they will also form their own series?

[CHT]

FOTA should take this opportunity to break away from F1 and do another series without Bernie and Mosley, because the former company CVC is sucking up too much of the TV and trackside revenue, while the latter is wasting too much team money with the constant rule changes.

With the break away series, I believe race ticket will be cheaper, car will be faster, technology will be more advance and the rules will be clearer.

[u401768]

In all the latest rounds of fighting - Bernie has not said a word. Which is odd, considering that he said F1 needed Ferrari, and also with TV companies saying if F1 all goes to hell, and FOTA break away, they will renegotiation (in some cases only paying 10% of what they currently do), so doesn’t it seam very vey odd?

If your business was going to go to hell wouldn’t you shout? I know I would.

Has a deal been done?

[pjobmathew]

I want to see a racing series which would lead to better automobile technology , something that can be put on road cars for good . if the breakaway happens , i wouldn't mind watching it

[gcdugas]

If a breakaway happens, I would follow it.

It would be at the historic circuits, at cheaper gate prices, with no Bernie or Max f**king things up.

Formula 1 (the series) would quickly die IMO. The two numptys (Bernie & Max) are trading on a massive bluff.

I 100% agree. There would be massive improvement on every front. Maybe we would have passing again. The OWG's efforts are just the beginning.

I do not have much to add but that Mike did not in fact follow the money in this case. I rather think that this time it is about egos as Michael Schmidt thinks. It all started with the veto that all teams collectively had until 2007.

Very true and that is why there was no real furor when it was "exposed" and the whole FIA controlled media machine tried to use it to drive a wedge in the FOTA. Prior to that Bernie and Max were able to abuse the veto clause because it divided the teams. Even a vote of 11-1, they cited a failure of "unanimity" as a lack of direction and they proceeded to do as they wished. Many abuses were endured by the teams this way.

The leading teams used to have the power to stop anything they did not like with a minority veto. Unilateral changes by FIA were only possible on a safety basis.

True in theory but not in historical fact. Max has abused the safety clause to impose V8s, spec'd bore centers, spec'd alloys, spec's cam locations, spec'd CG location and weight etc. He imposed the quali changes in 2003 after the teams had designed their cars fuel tank sizes, KERS, he imposed the grooved tires and narrow cars in 1998 and many other things under the guise of "safety". All these things Max has done unilaterally and in defiance of the teams' wishes.

The teams have seen how Max has exceeded his authority upon every opportunity. He has been abusive, hostile, arbitrary and draconian in his rulings, etc. And now he is proposing a budget cap that can only be enforced by allowing the FIA to peek at the books of each team? Only a fool would submit to that.

The first question is who would cough up the money for setting up the series? Ferrari, Red Bull and who else? The other five will not get any board approval for such an investment in my opinion. So if the series is owned by Red Bull and Ferrari how will this lead to a level playing field?

Wow! I didn't know you sat on the board of BMW, Renault, M-B and Toyota. How do you do it? Your "first question" presumes that a rival series couldn't operate at a profit. Setup costs would be recouped within 6 months as soon as the first contracts are drawn up with track promoters, TV networks etc. After that all the money that FOM is siphoning off will flow into the coffers of the FOTA umbrella organization.

If the breakaway happens, we'll have two series to watch for the first few years. After those probably two years, each of us will have a favourite, and stop following the other series closely. Both series will get less than half the TV coverage, less than half the money and they will have to share the circuits. Furthermore, watching Ferrari but not Williams kinda sucks. Going to Spa but missing Monza and Monaco will suck more. It's like going back to Windows once you've been using Linux for 5 years.

I don't think that F1-lite would last past their first season. If it does it will rapidly remove the need for the new F2 because that is where their fan base will come from. If I were a sponsor, I wouldn't invest a cent in Williams, USF1, Prodrive or any of the lot. Who cares? I am telling you that ALL of the prestige will go with the FOTA teams.

I want to see a racing series which would lead to better automobile technology , something that can be put on road cars for good . if the breakaway happens , i wouldn't mind watching it

The manufacturers will see to this also. As to KERS, I think the "green initiative" is OK as long as it is market driven and not legislated. So it would be best for the teams simply to allow regenerative braking of any kind, not limited to 6 seconds use, and see where that takes us. Allow any engine configuration, any valve train desired like this, CVTs and AWD too.

a breakaway series will not happen, it's all posturing and empty threats

mosley wants the fota teams, and the fota teams want to be in f1, but they both want to be the ones to dictate and neither wants to be seen to back down

eventually a compromise will be reached and we'll all go on and argue about something else

just like always

Not this time. You do not know Max. Max has backed himself into a corner from which there is no return. He is too stubborn. I repeat, no team will let Max look at their books even if the budget cap was ten billion Euros. And the teams want a determinative role. They have had it with constant rule changes, arbitrary court decisions and dictatorial rule.

BTW, once this course is irrevocably set, we will hear from McLaren again as the FIA sword of Damocles will no longer be a threat to them. I can only wonder about the sentiments they express in the confidential unrecorded minutes of the FOTA meetings.

This is the dawning of a bright new day. Long live FOTA. Bravo! Ole! Hurray! Viva!

[gcdugas]

Brabham, Lotus, March, Lola.... Max is going through the last throes of nostalgic premature senility, "rumored" to be from Syphilis he caught in a dungeon somewhere. Pitpass has scooped everyone, with another exclusive story about a potent and formidable new entry. Clicky

Looking in the near short term I wonder... OK so this Friday the FIA publishes it list without the FOTA 8. Simultaneously the FOTA teams issue a statement that they mourn the fact that they were driven from the sport and have little choice but to set up a rival series. =D>

Then the FIA under Max sets it course for a Cosworth only spec series. Bound by blood money, Williams has little choice as he who pays the piper [FOM] calls the tune, so they are swept away into the insignificance of F1-lite. FiF1 will do the FIA thing too and that may be the final and sad demise of a team that exactly 10 years ago almost stole the championship as a non-factory dark horse by winning several races on merit with HHF.

The FIA itself will undergo tumults. The election for a new president is in November. The clubs that make up the FIA (the subsumed masses that were hijacked during the FISA/FOCA war) may well reject their passenger status and push for a more determinative role, or leave the FIA altogether as they threatened over BDSM-gate. Max may use the "crisis" to justify running for president again breaking his promise... shock! But what will become of the FIA after their cash cow, F1, leaves and becomes GPMA premier series? Surely Max's F1-lite low budget series cannot sustain the fines and funding drain that the FIA is used to siphoning off. FOM/CVC will be livid at Max for ruining their investment as all their contracts will be with the unpopular, unspectacular Cosworth only spec F1-lite ghost of the past. Track owners, promoters and "tourist" arms of State agencies, will be suing FOM/CVC for breach of contract.

What of the EU ruling a few years back that curtailed some of the FIA's claimed rule making authority? Max has recently spoken as if the FIA is 100% autonomous and has brazenly said the teams have zero role in writing the rules. And will Bernie sue the FOTA to change their name since he has copyrighted the term "Formula One"? I hear that GPMA is available.

The FOTA teams will race at mostly the same venues under more favorable financial terms than they ever got from FOM/CVC. (The FIA/FOM series has a contract to race for one weekend a year leaving the other 51 weeks open!) Prince Albert of Monaco said he has no interest in a series without Ferrari. Presumably he would then welcome a FOTA series with Ferrari. Bernie may shoot Max personally.

I think the teams have woken up and found out that all the cards are in their hand. Bernie and Max have nothing without them. They have the cache/prestige/elan/panache. They have the cars. They have the drivers. They have the heritage. They have it all.

Who would have thought that Toyota, who in the GPMA days, were THE MAJOR drag on a split citing the CART/INDY row as an anathema to be avoided at all costs, and Ferrari whose departure from the GPMA sealed their fate, would be the key players in the teams finally breaking free from the tyrannical reign of Max Mosley? Apart from Mosley's "rumored" syphilitic madness accelerating to advanced stages of stubbornness, it is John Howett and Luca Montezemolo who are the driving forces behind the FOTA's new courage. Gone are Paul Stoddart and Ron Dennis. What irony! My hat is off to them all.... and to the dungeon mistress who "rumored" to have infected Max.

Who would have thought.... I melting, melting...


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfV_ENR5IZE[/youtube]

[kilcoo316]

This is exactly why Bernie would be the perfect partner to FOTA if they break away.

Bernie will ALWAYS welcome more money.

Are you --- nuts?!?!




Bernie will always welcome more money... FOR BERNIE.

He is far and away the biggest leech in F1 - how on earth can you not see that?

[Conceptual]

This is exactly why Bernie would be the perfect partner to FOTA if they break away.

Bernie will ALWAYS welcome more money.

Are you --- nuts?!?!




Bernie will always welcome more money... FOR BERNIE.

He is far and away the biggest leech in F1 - how on earth can you not see that?

I do see that, obviously. And my statement is based upon his greed.

What I did NOT say is that Bernie should make as much in the breakaway series as he currently does in F1.

If FOTA and Bernie were contracted on a reasonable revenue split, then I think Bernie would quickly jump onboard to supplement his F1 income.

Bernie could then rape and pillage the F1 teams, and then use that to invest and build the FOTA series. As long as FOTA don't get carried away and leave ambiguous parts of the contract open, it would be the best shot at a breakaway actually becoming competitive with F1. And Bernie would make money from both.

So, to answer your question:

I am not nuts at all.