2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[AR3-GP]

Russell says Mercedes will probably not be in the hunt in Bahrain next weekend:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/george-ru ... -unlikely/

The tone is awfully reminiscent of Hamilton's remarks early last season (although the issues are not porpoising this time).

[mkay]

https://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view ... n_retires/

I really feel sorry for Horner, he is (like Wolff said) obsessed with Wolff.

Toto will walk out the door the moment Lewis does IMHO.

There aint no reason they sent Vowles to Williams to get experience on running the team for nothing.

And they lost De Vries to Red Bull, who was probably the rising star coming into F1 for Merc.

De Vries a rising star? What year is this?

That said, Mercedes appears to be lost as a team, particularly on the engineering side. Feels like it has suffered greatly from the brain drain imposed by the cost cap.

[DGP123]

Yeah, quite depressing really. Not expecting much this season, and that’s not being negative, it’s looking like reality.

Agree, the team doesn’t seem to have much direction right now. Loss of key engineering/engine staff evident now.

[chrisc90]

https://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view ... n_retires/

I really feel sorry for Horner, he is (like Wolff said) obsessed with Wolff.

Toto will walk out the door the moment Lewis does IMHO.

There aint no reason they sent Vowles to Williams to get experience on running the team for nothing.

And they lost De Vries to Red Bull, who was probably the rising star coming into F1 for Merc.

De Vries a rising star? What year is this?

That said, Mercedes appears to be lost as a team, particularly on the engineering side. Feels like it has suffered greatly from the brain drain imposed by the cost cap.

Who else had they had as reserve/test driver for the team? Remember Nyck was a Formula 2 champion 2019 and Formula E 2020-21.
Normally you have someone who comes up through the ranks, F4-F2 and has a very well proven track record and experience that they would expand on in F1. Now Merc seem to have got all their eggs in a 16 year old's basket if Organic's post is to be believed of his career path. Otherwise they have nobody when Lewis decides to retire. When that occurs is anyones guess, but Lewis isnt really used to being in the position he is in at the minute of not having the bestest car he can get wins with. We seen last year how much it gets him down etc when he isnt getting 1st or 2nd every race.

Mercedes have lost a lot of top brains in the teams, and it could be/is showing. Or it could be that its simply not a case of throwing £500million at a season/year and coming up with lots of different options, fancy suspension tricks etc. Maybe they are struggling so much having to work on a budget.

Let's face it, evolving the W13 concept was always going to be a MASSIVE risk on the direction the W14 took. They knew the W13 had serious issues that couldnt be solved in a season, which they knew about pretty early on in the season. So they had a vast amount of time to work on those issues and iron them out for the 2023 season with the W14. To come out with a reported huge design change/upgrade package a few races into the 23 season indicates to me that they never knew what was wrong with the W13 in the first place and were just hedging their bets on the solutions they come up with.

Saturday and Sunday next week will be either a massive eye opener for Mercedes or they will be in a similar position to where they ended up finishing last year. Time will tell.

[zeroday]

Russell says Mercedes will probably not be in the hunt in Bahrain next weekend:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/george-ru ... -unlikely/

The tone is awfully reminiscent of Hamilton's remarks early last season (although the issues are not porpoising this time).

tbf, well before testing began merc already said they wouldn't be "in the hunt" until after the first few races.
their current issues are par for the course for pre season testing. its happened to all the teams in the past. rb was not immune, even in 2022.

[F1Krof]

Yeah, quite depressing really. Not expecting much this season, and that’s not being negative, it’s looking like reality.

Agree, the team doesn’t seem to have much direction right now. Loss of key engineering/engine staff evident now.

This!!!

I have more than 15 years of working in different big(ish) corporation. The pattern seems almost carbon copy. They hire personnel, instead of incentivizing with bigger salaries and clear career paths, they try to keep the employees happy with prestige, like with this attitude "... hey money isn't everything, you must be proud who you're working for...". And slowly the key personnel leaves, especially the more experienced and those who know that their impact was bigger than what they were getting credit for. And slowly the team loses the coherence, focus and most importantly passion.

I'm not saying this is what exactly is happening at Mercedes, but I do believe that Nikki left a huge hole which was never filled. With James Allison taking a back seat, without Aldo Costa who was in my opinion the genius behind incredible suspension mechanics Merc enjoyed since 2013.

Then Andy Cowell left the HPP engine department. Yeah... I knew hard times were coming.

As much as Toto's philosophy is about having the right mindset, right culture and right system at a successful organization, (which I do agree generally), the individuals make the difference, those very talented self-driven and highly motivated hard working and HIGHTLY TALENTED individuals make most of the difference in such marginal competitive environment.

If Mercedes does not get back to talent hunting, they will fall in the midfield purgatory.

[AR3-GP]

Yeah, quite depressing really. Not expecting much this season, and that’s not being negative, it’s looking like reality.

Agree, the team doesn’t seem to have much direction right now. Loss of key engineering/engine staff evident now.

This!!!

I have more than 15 years of working in different big(ish) corporation. The pattern seems almost carbon copy. They hire personnel, instead of incentivizing with bigger salaries and clear career paths, they try to keep the employees happy with prestige, like with this attitude "... hey money isn't everything, you must be proud who you're working for...". And slowly the key personnel leaves, especially the more experienced and those who know that their impact was bigger than what they were getting credit for. And slowly the team loses the coherence, focus and most importantly passion.

I'm not saying this is what exactly is happening at Mercedes, but I do believe that Nikki left a huge hole which was never filled. With James Allison taking a back seat, without Aldo Costa who was in my opinion the genius behind incredible suspension mechanics Merc enjoyed since 2013.

I think you are ignoring the human toll that the F1 lifestyle takes on these top engineers.

These guys are not quitting because they weren't being paid enough and were being asked to survive on pride. They are quitting because they are burnt out. You are familiar with Kyle Engineers right? He did a video on it. The lifestyle in those core engineering roles is not sustainable.

James Allison has kids. Aldo Costa has kids. Cowell retired from F1 practically speaking. Even Adrian Newey spends less than half of his time w/ F1 now. With these longer and longer calendars, it's insanity.

[F1Krof]

Yeah, quite depressing really. Not expecting much this season, and that’s not being negative, it’s looking like reality.

Agree, the team doesn’t seem to have much direction right now. Loss of key engineering/engine staff evident now.

This!!!

I have more than 15 years of working in different big(ish) corporation. The pattern seems almost carbon copy. They hire personnel, instead of incentivizing with bigger salaries and clear career paths, they try to keep the employees happy with prestige, like with this attitude "... hey money isn't everything, you must be proud who you're working for...". And slowly the key personnel leaves, especially the more experienced and those who know that their impact was bigger than what they were getting credit for. And slowly the team loses the coherence, focus and most importantly passion.

I'm not saying this is what exactly is happening at Mercedes, but I do believe that Nikki left a huge hole which was never filled. With James Allison taking a back seat, without Aldo Costa who was in my opinion the genius behind incredible suspension mechanics Merc enjoyed since 2013.

I think you are ignoring the human toll that the F1 lifestyle takes on these top engineers.

These guys are not quitting because they weren't being paid enough and were being asked to survive on pride. They are quitting because they are burnt out. You are familiar with Kyle Engineers right? He did a video on it. The lifestyle in those core engineering roles is not sustainable.

James Allison has kids. Aldo Costa has kids. Cowell retired from F1 practically speaking. Even Adrian Newey spends less than half of his time w/ F1 now. With these longer and longer calendars, it's insanity.

As as I said, I'm not saying that is is the case with Mercedes. I want to point out that the lack of senior talented engineering personnel, seem to have taken a toll on performance output of the team.

[PlatinumZealot]

Its unrealistic to expect anyteam to be close to RedBull and Ferrari after how far ahead they were last year. It's a matter of chipping away and refining to catch them up. I see Mercedes taking to them after Barcelona updgrades.

[AR3-GP]

Its unrealistic to expect anyteam to be close to RedBull and Ferrari after how far ahead they were last year. It's a matter of chipping away and refining to catch them up. I see Mercedes taking to them after Barcelona updgrades.

What about the Barcelona upgrades of Ferrari and Red Bull?

[F1Krof]

Its unrealistic to expect anyteam to be close to RedBull and Ferrari after how far ahead they were last year. It's a matter of chipping away and refining to catch them up. I see Mercedes taking to them after Barcelona updgrades.

What about the Barcelona upgrades of Ferrari and Red Bull?

Yes, and what about Aston Martin?

[AR3-GP]

Its unrealistic to expect anyteam to be close to RedBull and Ferrari after how far ahead they were last year. It's a matter of chipping away and refining to catch them up. I see Mercedes taking to them after Barcelona updgrades.

What about the Barcelona upgrades of Ferrari and Red Bull?

Yes, and what about Aston Martin?

I agree, they could be there as well.

I just think some people get into the practice of assuming the world stands still for Mercedes.

[mkay]

Toto will walk out the door the moment Lewis does IMHO.

There aint no reason they sent Vowles to Williams to get experience on running the team for nothing.

And they lost De Vries to Red Bull, who was probably the rising star coming into F1 for Merc.

De Vries a rising star? What year is this?

That said, Mercedes appears to be lost as a team, particularly on the engineering side. Feels like it has suffered greatly from the brain drain imposed by the cost cap.

Who else had they had as reserve/test driver for the team? Remember Nyck was a Formula 2 champion 2019 and Formula E 2020-21.
Normally you have someone who comes up through the ranks, F4-F2 and has a very well proven track record and experience that they would expand on in F1. Now Merc seem to have got all their eggs in a 16 year old's basket if Organic's post is to be believed of his career path. Otherwise they have nobody when Lewis decides to retire. When that occurs is anyones guess, but Lewis isnt really used to being in the position he is in at the minute of not having the bestest car he can get wins with. We seen last year how much it gets him down etc when he isnt getting 1st or 2nd every race.

Mercedes have lost a lot of top brains in the teams, and it could be/is showing. Or it could be that its simply not a case of throwing £500million at a season/year and coming up with lots of different options, fancy suspension tricks etc. Maybe they are struggling so much having to work on a budget.

Let's face it, evolving the W13 concept was always going to be a MASSIVE risk on the direction the W14 took. They knew the W13 had serious issues that couldnt be solved in a season, which they knew about pretty early on in the season. So they had a vast amount of time to work on those issues and iron them out for the 2023 season with the W14. To come out with a reported huge design change/upgrade package a few races into the 23 season indicates to me that they never knew what was wrong with the W13 in the first place and were just hedging their bets on the solutions they come up with.

Saturday and Sunday next week will be either a massive eye opener for Mercedes or they will be in a similar position to where they ended up finishing last year. Time will tell.

On de Vries, it took him three tries to win F2. He was a McLaren junior driver for a decade with nothing to show for, and got passed over by Norris and Vandoorne. He’s talented but his status as a future star vanished a long time ago.

[PlatinumZealot]

Its unrealistic to expect anyteam to be close to RedBull and Ferrari after how far ahead they were last year. It's a matter of chipping away and refining to catch them up. I see Mercedes taking to them after Barcelona updgrades.

What about the Barcelona upgrades of Ferrari and Red Bull?

Diminishing returns....

[organic]

Its unrealistic to expect anyteam to be close to RedBull and Ferrari after how far ahead they were last year. It's a matter of chipping away and refining to catch them up. I see Mercedes taking to them after Barcelona updgrades.

What about the Barcelona upgrades of Ferrari and Red Bull?

Diminishing returns....

Does that exist in F1 development at this stage of an aero regulation set?

I would argue that there is also the effect of faster teams understand their car/concept better -> more likely to know where to focus development -> more likely to gain more time from better placed development

I think the biggest thing in merc's favour is the extra WT time