2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
dialtone
dialtone
121
Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 19:09
Practically speaking, it's quite difficult to ask two drivers to do the same laptime. Nevermind within 0.005 of a second. Especially two drivers with different driving style.
Yeah, I'm not saying they were asked to do it identical, but they were asked to get close to the other. If you look at it the other way, HAM and RUS were 0.8s apart on day 3 with the C5 between night and day.

Sevach
Sevach
1081
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

dialtone wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 19:14
AR3-GP wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 19:09
Practically speaking, it's quite difficult to ask two drivers to do the same laptime. Nevermind within 0.005 of a second. Especially two drivers with different driving style.
Yeah, I'm not saying they were asked to do it identical, but they were asked to get close to the other. If you look at it the other way, HAM and RUS were 0.8s apart on day 3 with the C5 between night and day.
Compared to extreme HAM doing it after the sun was out and RUS during the hottest part of the day, Sainz lap was done while the sun was still there, that helps close the gap a bit(a lot), maybe he had 10kg of fuel extra... or a slightly worst lap.

dialtone
dialtone
121
Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Sevach wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 20:23
dialtone wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 19:14
AR3-GP wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 19:09
Practically speaking, it's quite difficult to ask two drivers to do the same laptime. Nevermind within 0.005 of a second. Especially two drivers with different driving style.
Yeah, I'm not saying they were asked to do it identical, but they were asked to get close to the other. If you look at it the other way, HAM and RUS were 0.8s apart on day 3 with the C5 between night and day.
Compared to extreme HAM doing it after the sun was out and RUS during the hottest part of the day, Sainz lap was done while the sun was still there, that helps close the gap a bit(a lot), maybe he had 10kg of fuel extra... or a slightly worst lap.
Yeah totally fair point, I went to grab weather data for those laps:

SAI
Time 0 days 07:19:49.912000
AirTemp 25.4
Humidity 50.0
Pressure 1012.7
Rainfall False
TrackTemp 32.5
WindDirection 322
WindSpeed 2.0

LEC
Time 0 days 01:45:48.711000
AirTemp 26.7
Humidity 40.0
Pressure 1014.0
Rainfall False
TrackTemp 37.8
WindDirection 235
WindSpeed 1.0

HAM
Time 0 days 08:31:50.209000
AirTemp 25.5
Humidity 43.0
Pressure 1012.9
Rainfall False
TrackTemp 30.3
WindDirection 331
WindSpeed 1.1

RUS
Time 0 days 01:30:48.649000
AirTemp 26.3
Humidity 39.0
Pressure 1014.2
Rainfall False
TrackTemp 37.0
WindDirection 214
WindSpeed 0.6

There about 1.4C difference between the delta temperature from LEC/SAI and HAM/RUS, I don't think 1.4C and 0.5C of air temperature explains 0.8s.

Anyway, I'm not going to strongly defend my point much further, it's just a thought from an ignorant PoV, it just doesn't seem so far fetched for me that they would try to run similar times in different conditions to check the impact on the tyres.

User avatar
organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Air temperature matters far far less than track temp for the rubber, where there are larger swings. Smaller differences in track temp than I expected though.

f1316
f1316
82
Joined: 22 Feb 2012, 18:36

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

dialtone wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 20:35
Sevach wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 20:23
dialtone wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 19:14


Yeah, I'm not saying they were asked to do it identical, but they were asked to get close to the other. If you look at it the other way, HAM and RUS were 0.8s apart on day 3 with the C5 between night and day.
Compared to extreme HAM doing it after the sun was out and RUS during the hottest part of the day, Sainz lap was done while the sun was still there, that helps close the gap a bit(a lot), maybe he had 10kg of fuel extra... or a slightly worst lap.
Yeah totally fair point, I went to grab weather data for those laps:

SAI
Time 0 days 07:19:49.912000
AirTemp 25.4
Humidity 50.0
Pressure 1012.7
Rainfall False
TrackTemp 32.5
WindDirection 322
WindSpeed 2.0

LEC
Time 0 days 01:45:48.711000
AirTemp 26.7
Humidity 40.0
Pressure 1014.0
Rainfall False
TrackTemp 37.8
WindDirection 235
WindSpeed 1.0

HAM
Time 0 days 08:31:50.209000
AirTemp 25.5
Humidity 43.0
Pressure 1012.9
Rainfall False
TrackTemp 30.3
WindDirection 331
WindSpeed 1.1

RUS
Time 0 days 01:30:48.649000
AirTemp 26.3
Humidity 39.0
Pressure 1014.2
Rainfall False
TrackTemp 37.0
WindDirection 214
WindSpeed 0.6

There about 1.4C difference between the delta temperature from LEC/SAI and HAM/RUS, I don't think 1.4C and 0.5C of air temperature explains 0.8s.

Anyway, I'm not going to strongly defend my point much further, it's just a thought from an ignorant PoV, it just doesn't seem so far fetched for me that they would try to run similar times in different conditions to check the impact on the tyres.
There was 5.3 degrees difference track temp for Ferrari which is the main thing and a significant difference for these tyres. It’s not quite as much as 6.7 degrees difference for Mercedes but it still makes a big difference, especially as Leclerc’s time was done when the track was at its hottest (0.8 degrees hotter then when Russel’s was set).

Anyway, this has been said in prior pages but if (and if it’s a big IF) Amus’ gap of 0.2-0.4 seconds to Red Bull is accurate based on the testing data, I’d be very happy given the type of running/wing levels Ferrari used. We’ll see but hopeful that it’ll actually be very close.

dialtone
dialtone
121
Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

f1316 wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 21:55
There was 5.3 degrees difference track temp for Ferrari which is the main thing and a significant difference for these tyres. It’s not quite as much as 6.7 degrees difference for Mercedes but it still makes a big difference
That's not what I said, I talked about delta temp difference being 1.4C, that's 6.7C minus 5.3C. 1.4 is certainly significant but not 0.8s significant on one side and 0.02s on the other. Anyway...

LM10
LM10
121
Joined: 07 Mar 2018, 00:07

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Is there really a difference between these two wings Ferrari used? Is the one they used in the morning of day 3 (until DRS broke) actually a higher downforce wing? To me they look the same or really similar at least. The aero guy “B Sport” on YouTube also told in his testing summary video that it was the same wing with the difference being the double vs. the single pillar.

Image

User avatar
organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Well the Duchessa reports say it's slightly higher downforce. There is also a difference in that image that immediately says it's not the same spec

Image

Also just zoom in and follow the leading edge of the mainplane. The double pylon wing is continuously spooned whereas the single pylon has a noticeably more horizontal leading edge through the centre section

Image

LM10
LM10
121
Joined: 07 Mar 2018, 00:07

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Really tricky stuff. :) The difference in downforce levels must be small.

I realized that I accidentally posted that in the team thread instead of the car thread. So if it does match the car thread more, please move it there.

SoulPancake13
SoulPancake13
1
Joined: 24 Feb 2023, 18:49

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

I am surely not the only one who does not understand the doom and gloom of many of the fans online? It is clear that Ferrari tested not for lap time, but for general understanding of the car, which Vasseur says has been accomplished. There are 3 hours this weekend to hone in the setup for the specific track, but most of the tracks this season will use the medium-low wing. Even the lap time data that dialtone posted (which I am sure we are all very grateful for) doesn't look bad whatsoever, especially considering the ill fitting rear wing. I feel a sense of cautious optimism for whatever reason.
Last edited by SoulPancake13 on 27 Feb 2023, 00:24, edited 1 time in total.

Sevach
Sevach
1081
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

LM10 wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 23:19
Really tricky stuff. :) The difference in downforce levels must be small.

I realized that I accidentally posted that in the team thread instead of the car thread. So if it does match the car thread more, please move it there.
I agree with Organic that the "mouth" is ever so slightly more open giving it extra surface(and hopefully downforce).

And yes this looks more like a replacement than something aimed at totally a different drag/downforce ratio, this wing will end up taking most races Ferrari would do with the old one.

f1316
f1316
82
Joined: 22 Feb 2012, 18:36

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

dialtone wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 22:18
f1316 wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 21:55
There was 5.3 degrees difference track temp for Ferrari which is the main thing and a significant difference for these tyres. It’s not quite as much as 6.7 degrees difference for Mercedes but it still makes a big difference
That's not what I said, I talked about delta temp difference being 1.4C, that's 6.7C minus 5.3C. 1.4 is certainly significant but not 0.8s significant on one side and 0.02s on the other. Anyway...
Got it, makes sense and agree with the original point.

Sevach
Sevach
1081
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

dialtone wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 20:35

Yeah totally fair point, I went to grab weather data for those laps:

SAI
Time 0 days 07:19:49.912000
AirTemp 25.4
Humidity 50.0
Pressure 1012.7
Rainfall False
TrackTemp 32.5
WindDirection 322
WindSpeed 2.0

LEC
Time 0 days 01:45:48.711000
AirTemp 26.7
Humidity 40.0
Pressure 1014.0
Rainfall False
TrackTemp 37.8
WindDirection 235
WindSpeed 1.0

HAM
Time 0 days 08:31:50.209000
AirTemp 25.5
Humidity 43.0
Pressure 1012.9
Rainfall False
TrackTemp 30.3
WindDirection 331
WindSpeed 1.1

RUS
Time 0 days 01:30:48.649000
AirTemp 26.3
Humidity 39.0
Pressure 1014.2
Rainfall False
TrackTemp 37.0
WindDirection 214
WindSpeed 0.6

There about 1.4C difference between the delta temperature from LEC/SAI and HAM/RUS, I don't think 1.4C and 0.5C of air temperature explains 0.8s.

Anyway, I'm not going to strongly defend my point much further, it's just a thought from an ignorant PoV, it just doesn't seem so far fetched for me that they would try to run similar times in different conditions to check the impact on the tyres.
Cheers on getting hard data.
I have to say i'm still a bit flabbergasted that track temperature of Sainz lap was closer to Hamilton than to Charles, i expected the reverse...

Maybe the pitlane was already in shade? Uhhh doesn't matter let's wait a week :lol:

User avatar
organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

https://www.formu1a.uno/red-bull-ha-imp ... pricciosa/
SF-23: the balance problem is related to the load level and ground clearance, aerodynamic corrections are coming soon.

During these three days of testing, the technicians on the Shakir track carried out some rather extreme tests in terms of suspension stiffness, ground clearance, etc… . The so-called 'scan' then started to bear fruit, suggesting which are the best options for a good basic setup to make the most of the new Ferrari SF-23. A source confirmed to us that the Ferrari SF-23 revved higher to limit harmful bouncing . Not ideal, however rather conservative the approach that is expected will be much more aggressive from free practice. The car can certainly be much faster than the F1-75 , nevertheless it seems more complicated to take to the limit due to an aerodynamic limitation on the front discovered by the technicians. The car suffered from understeer , particularly with less grip due to the higher track temperatures. Something unexpected that put Leclerc in more difficulty than Sainz. A limitation to be corrected for aerodynamicists; the long chat between the Monegasque and David Sanchez concerned this discomfort.

The most positive factor, on the other hand, has to do with the efficiency gain, which has been significant. According to an opposing engineer, the GPS of the Ferrari SF-23 showed that it is potentially faster than the F1-75 by 10 km/h at the same load. Contrary to 2022, it is therefore possible that we will see SF-23 in better shape in Jeddah than in Bahrain. Meanwhile, the new rear wing - with more downforce - will be available for the race weekend , the front with an updated element design expected to arrive by Melbourne
How did they manage to make understeery car with that rear wing & also the new pirellis

Xyz22
Xyz22
123
Joined: 16 Feb 2022, 20:05

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

The SF23 still has an important potential to express, especially because it was very fast in terms of pure performance. Obviously, only the technicians know the work plan and how much margin they will have to fix the long run, which is not always convincing. The new rear wing mounted on Leclerc's car on the last day of testing is a clear evolution of the inherited specification and has shown the need to use a slightly different load through the main plane. The inconvenience made the technicians frown, who were counting on the opportunity to accumulate a lot of data for simulations. On the other hand, anticipating it allowed to highlight what would have been a problem in the race weekend and therefore to have more time to react, strengthening the actuator.
SF-23: the balancing problem is related to the level of load and height from the ground, aerodynamic corrections are coming.

The technicians on the track at Shakir in these three days of testing have carried out some rather extreme tests in terms of suspension stiffness, ground clearances, etc. The so-called 'scan' then began to bear fruit, suggesting what the best options are for a good basic setup to make the most of the new Ferrari SF-23. A source confirmed to us that the Ferrari SF-23 ran higher to limit harmful bouncing. Not ideal, however, the approach is rather conservative and is expected to be much more aggressive during free practice. The car can certainly be much faster than the F1-75, nevertheless it seems more difficult to bring to the limit due to an aerodynamic limitation on the front end discovered by the technicians. The car suffered from understeer, particularly with less grip due to higher track temperatures. Something unexpected that put Leclerc in more difficulty than Sainz. A limitation to be corrected for the aerodynamicists; the long chat between the Monegasque and David Sanchez concerned this discomfort.
So according to the latest article from Formu1a.uno the real issue is that the "front end of the car" didn't perform according to expectations and caused a lot of understeer, which was absolutely evident from the onboards. They also run the car higher to avoid any issues and they expect be more aggressive during the race weekend.

This doesn't bode well and gives me massive 2019 vibes. I hope they will be able to fix the unexpected issues.