I don't believe anybody's sandbagging. Especially Mercs since there is no reason behind it. With cost cap system, whatever it is that some team has and does not want to show is almost impossible to copy and effectively use on their own cars in short to mid-term.AR3-GP wrote: ↑26 Feb 2023, 23:11I by no means think "switching to a RB car" is a solution for them. They'll be a year behind as you say. I think it's the nature of F1 whereby a year 1 screw up may take years to remedy. Ferrari is probably a bit different. We know they had the performance from the beginning on a traditional circuit. The W13 never showed that pace at a traditional circuit. It only looked promising at high altitude but there are not enough of those circuits to be worth it.organic wrote: ↑26 Feb 2023, 23:03I guess but switching to a RB philosophy at the end of year 1 also doesn't have much promise. You will be a year behind RB's development and have to tackle problems that they already have. All Merc and Ferrari can do is hope that their concepts will develop well and offer more performance down the line, unless they really hit a wall and have to abandon it (like the w13's original floor concept but luckily they could ditch that early)
Caveats apply since we don't really know if this is an extremely elaborate sandbagging scheme of course...
I believe this is by design, they want less powerful ICE and compensate with batteries and kers. In my opinion this is not necessary, they should keep ICE output somewhere in the ballpark of 2023-2025 figures and just increase electrical output. Modern cars are SLOW on the straights, too slow.
AMR doing a better job with bought parts? I didn't think that was possible?pursue_one's wrote: ↑27 Feb 2023, 23:59AMuS reports that apparently the ground clearance of the RB19 is at least 10 millimetres below everyone else. Toto Wolff says their floor would break if they would do the same. Also Mercedes engineers claim to have noticed that the AMR23 drives at a lower ride height too, and despite that, gets over the bumps well. It is also strong on corner exit. The comparison with Aston Martin is interesting for Mercedes because they supply Aston Martin with the engine, gearbox and rear suspension.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... rain-2023/
Just imagine!AR3-GP wrote: ↑28 Feb 2023, 00:01AMR doing a better job with bought parts? I didn't think that was possible?pursue_one's wrote: ↑27 Feb 2023, 23:59AMuS reports that apparently the ground clearance of the RB19 is at least 10 millimetres below everyone else. Toto Wolff says their floor would break if they would do the same. Also Mercedes engineers claim to have noticed that the AMR23 drives at a lower ride height too, and despite that, gets over the bumps well. It is also strong on corner exit. The comparison with Aston Martin is interesting for Mercedes because they supply Aston Martin with the engine, gearbox and rear suspension.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... rain-2023/
Red Bull 2nd vs Renault 8th - 2009chrisc90 wrote: ↑28 Feb 2023, 00:08Just imagine!AR3-GP wrote: ↑28 Feb 2023, 00:01AMR doing a better job with bought parts? I didn't think that was possible?pursue_one's wrote: ↑27 Feb 2023, 23:59AMuS reports that apparently the ground clearance of the RB19 is at least 10 millimetres below everyone else. Toto Wolff says their floor would break if they would do the same. Also Mercedes engineers claim to have noticed that the AMR23 drives at a lower ride height too, and despite that, gets over the bumps well. It is also strong on corner exit. The comparison with Aston Martin is interesting for Mercedes because they supply Aston Martin with the engine, gearbox and rear suspension.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... rain-2023/
How often has a customer finished ahead of the works team?
AM23 is able to do that while using Mercedes rear suspension so it must be something elseringo wrote: ↑27 Feb 2023, 15:59You may also want a denser fuel.
If have the same amount of energy in less volume, there is an advantage. Less pumping, more air, generally less mass and smaller fuel tank.
As for rear axle stability, I think that's a very good insight. Much better stuff to discuss than sidepods for sure lol.
The suspension is very underestimated in the formula.
It was reportes that the rB19 is riding 10mm lower than everyone else without breaking the floor. So clearly their advantage is coming from the floor and the suspension's response is facilitating that.
Imo, Mercedes is being a little bit theatrical. How do you imagine they measured 10mm? With their eyes? Toto also called their traction "breathtaking"Venturiation wrote: ↑28 Feb 2023, 00:30AM23 is able to do that while using Mercedes rear suspension so it must be something elseringo wrote: ↑27 Feb 2023, 15:59You may also want a denser fuel.
If have the same amount of energy in less volume, there is an advantage. Less pumping, more air, generally less mass and smaller fuel tank.
As for rear axle stability, I think that's a very good insight. Much better stuff to discuss than sidepods for sure lol.
The suspension is very underestimated in the formula.
It was reportes that the rB19 is riding 10mm lower than everyone else without breaking the floor. So clearly their advantage is coming from the floor and the suspension's response is facilitating that.
They have photographs of each car and engineers analysing them so it could be trueAR3-GP wrote: ↑28 Feb 2023, 00:46Imo, Mercedes is being a little bit theatrical. How do you imagine they measured 10mm? With their eyes? Toto also called their traction "breathtaking"Venturiation wrote: ↑28 Feb 2023, 00:30AM23 is able to do that while using Mercedes rear suspension so it must be something elseringo wrote: ↑27 Feb 2023, 15:59You may also want a denser fuel.
If have the same amount of energy in less volume, there is an advantage. Less pumping, more air, generally less mass and smaller fuel tank.
As for rear axle stability, I think that's a very good insight. Much better stuff to discuss than sidepods for sure lol.
The suspension is very underestimated in the formula.
It was reportes that the rB19 is riding 10mm lower than everyone else without breaking the floor. So clearly their advantage is coming from the floor and the suspension's response is facilitating that.
Peak political theater.
I don't think AM23 is doing the same. I feel that car is overrated so far. Just a hunch.Venturiation wrote: ↑28 Feb 2023, 00:30AM23 is able to do that while using Mercedes rear suspension so it must be something elseringo wrote: ↑27 Feb 2023, 15:59You may also want a denser fuel.
If have the same amount of energy in less volume, there is an advantage. Less pumping, more air, generally less mass and smaller fuel tank.
As for rear axle stability, I think that's a very good insight. Much better stuff to discuss than sidepods for sure lol.
The suspension is very underestimated in the formula.
It was reportes that the rB19 is riding 10mm lower than everyone else without breaking the floor. So clearly their advantage is coming from the floor and the suspension's response is facilitating that.
Both W14 and AMR23 cars have a pushrod suspension although the latter has a different geometry setting. RB19 has a pull road suspension so it seems that the underfloor must be the likely real reason ...ringo wrote: ↑28 Feb 2023, 01:15I don't think AM23 is doing the same. I feel that car is overrated so far. Just a hunch.Venturiation wrote: ↑28 Feb 2023, 00:30AM23 is able to do that while using Mercedes rear suspension so it must be something elseringo wrote: ↑27 Feb 2023, 15:59You may also want a denser fuel.
If have the same amount of energy in less volume, there is an advantage. Less pumping, more air, generally less mass and smaller fuel tank.
As for rear axle stability, I think that's a very good insight. Much better stuff to discuss than sidepods for sure lol.
The suspension is very underestimated in the formula.
It was reportes that the rB19 is riding 10mm lower than everyone else without breaking the floor. So clearly their advantage is coming from the floor and the suspension's response is facilitating that.
But it would be interesting if they were doing more with the suspension. Would they be free to modify the suspension?
I am sure they are. The geartrain, hydraulics and pick up points may be the bulk of what's shared. The rest could be all AMR.
I made a lengthy post in the general aerodynamics topic that could be related to this. First I have to say I am unsure how true this rumour is. There doesn’t seem to be a direct quote from Wolff or any Mercedes engineers, just AMuS reporting of it supposedly.pursue_one's wrote: ↑27 Feb 2023, 23:59AMuS reports that apparently the ground clearance of the RB19 is at least 10 millimetres below everyone else. Toto Wolff says their floor would break if they would do the same. Also Mercedes engineers claim to have noticed that the AMR23 drives at a lower ride height too, and despite that, gets over the bumps well. It is also strong on corner exit. The comparison with Aston Martin is interesting for Mercedes because they supply Aston Martin with the engine, gearbox and rear suspension.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... rain-2023/