Ferrari SF23

[Cs98]

The source said 10km/h gained with the same load. It's very much insane. It's saying they haven't lost any downforce doing it.

Cars are 1.5 to 2 seconds quicker than last year, but a large part of that is coming from the new tires which Pirelli says are 1.5 seconds faster than last year which is a combination of the construction improvements and the reduction of the minimum tire pressures.

In that we are only discussing straight line speed, not cornering grip, then gaining 10km/h with the same amount of downforce is insanely good numbers. It's frightening.

"Same load" is not "same wing". They've obviously found gains elsewhere meaning they can unload the wing, shed drag, whilst still maintaining the same overall load on the car. The car will most certainly not be 10kph faster on the straights when they bolt on a similar rear wing to what they used last year.

And your 1,5 seconds of tyre performance seems like a massive overestimation.

The load I was referring to is the total car downforce, not the wing downforce.

They've traded some of their low efficiency downforce (RW) for high efficiency downforce (floor). Overall load the same, reduced drag. Nothing "insane" about it considering that would put them in the same boat as every other team, except most other teams kept the increased downforce instead of swapping to a low drag wing, at least in testing.

[Cs98]

The source said 10km/h gained with the same load. It's very much insane. It's saying they haven't lost any downforce doing it.

Cars are 1.5 to 2 seconds quicker than last year, but a large part of that is coming from the new tires which Pirelli says are 1.5 seconds faster than last year which is a combination of the construction improvements and the reduction of the minimum tire pressures.

In that we are only discussing straight line speed, not cornering grip, then gaining 10km/h with the same amount of downforce is insanely good numbers. It's frightening.

"Same load" is not "same wing". They've obviously found gains elsewhere meaning they can unload the wing, shed drag, whilst still maintaining the same overall load on the car. The car will most certainly not be 10kph faster on the straights when they bolt on a similar rear wing to what they used last year.

And your 1,5 seconds of tyre performance seems like a massive overestimation.

Same load as in same overall downforce. It does not play a role which rear wing they manage this figure with.

Regarding tyre performance, it was Mario Isola himself saying that this year's tyres are about 1.5 seconds faster than last year's.

If he said it he said it. But it doesn't really add up when looking at the lap times. I'm expecting these cars to generate more downforce and be quite a bit lighter than last year (most teams). If you add 1,5 seconds of tyre time too I would expect massive gains, far above what we've seen so far.

[AR3-GP]

"Same load" is not "same wing". They've obviously found gains elsewhere meaning they can unload the wing, shed drag, whilst still maintaining the same overall load on the car. The car will most certainly not be 10kph faster on the straights when they bolt on a similar rear wing to what they used last year.

And your 1,5 seconds of tyre performance seems like a massive overestimation.

Same load as in same overall downforce. It does not play a role which rear wing they manage this figure with.

Regarding tyre performance, it was Mario Isola himself saying that this year's tyres are about 1.5 seconds faster than last year's.

If he said it he said it. But it doesn't really add up when looking at the lap times. I'm expecting these cars to generate more downforce and be quite a bit lighter than last year (most teams). If you add 1,5 seconds of tyre time too I would expect massive gains, far above what we've seen so far.

Yes but you are ignoring that everyone is sandbagging. The quickest lap in Bahrain preseason last year was a 1.31.7.

[AR3-GP]

"Same load" is not "same wing". They've obviously found gains elsewhere meaning they can unload the wing, shed drag, whilst still maintaining the same overall load on the car. The car will most certainly not be 10kph faster on the straights when they bolt on a similar rear wing to what they used last year.

And your 1,5 seconds of tyre performance seems like a massive overestimation.

The load I was referring to is the total car downforce, not the wing downforce.

They've traded some of their low efficiency downforce (RW) for high efficiency downforce (floor). Overall load the same, reduced drag. Nothing "insane" about it considering that would put them in the same boat as every other team, except most other teams kept the increased downforce instead of swapping to a low drag wing, at least in testing.

The Ferrari was already a relatively quick car in a straight line before the PU issues last season. It was really only second to RB. To now have found 10km/h at top speed, is remarkable, not something to dismiss.

[Vanja #66]

If I understand right the problem is rather on mechanical/suspension side than on aero?

It's both it seems, front wing lacks a bit of downforce and suspension setup is not yet where it needs to be. It was always going to be both, until both drivers are happy with balance. Looking back at how the car was behaving on Thursday and later on Friday, it might be that they've established their ride height and found out they lack something on the front on Thursday. Then on Friday, with higher car, they could set it up properly, but losing time in doing so. And then on Saturday they go a bit lower and confirm the car is again too strong in the rear.

Now, if they will run lower this weekend and add the rear wing a bit, the balance will shift to the rear. If they found out they can't cover this added downforce with their front end, the we haven't yet seen how the car will actually behave when they set the aero loads as they planned to for the Bahrain race. So it may not be so much about the problems they experienced in the test, but rather about the problems they expect to have. This would confirm an aero balance problem.

They've traded some of their low efficiency downforce (RW) for high efficiency downforce (floor). Overall load the same, reduced drag. Nothing "insane" about it considering that would put them in the same boat as every other team, except most other teams kept the increased downforce instead of swapping to a low drag wing, at least in testing.

The insane bit is they've shed almost 10% of drag and kept the downforce if these reports are true. This doesn't mean they will simply gain the time in Q on top speed only, since tyres alone are quite "faster" this year. It also doesn't mean they wont add more front and rear wing, increasing both the drag and downforce from what was seen in testing. 5% is good progress, 10% would be truly insane. So I'm not holding my breath...

[Cs98]

The load I was referring to is the total car downforce, not the wing downforce.

They've traded some of their low efficiency downforce (RW) for high efficiency downforce (floor). Overall load the same, reduced drag. Nothing "insane" about it considering that would put them in the same boat as every other team, except most other teams kept the increased downforce instead of swapping to a low drag wing, at least in testing.

The Ferrari was already a relatively quick car in a straight line before the PU issues last season. It was really only second to RB. To now have found 10km/h at top speed, is remarkable, not something to dismiss.

You are overselling it. They may be faster in a straight line having the same load, but their main competitors have significantly more load without gaining drag. The RB is hitting similar top speed numbers as last season whilst clearly having more DF. The Merc has lost a lot of drag, the AM is faster on the straights and MUCH faster in the corners. Everyone has progressed, what we see from Ferrari is natural.

[Cs98]

Same load as in same overall downforce. It does not play a role which rear wing they manage this figure with.

Regarding tyre performance, it was Mario Isola himself saying that this year's tyres are about 1.5 seconds faster than last year's.

If he said it he said it. But it doesn't really add up when looking at the lap times. I'm expecting these cars to generate more downforce and be quite a bit lighter than last year (most teams). If you add 1,5 seconds of tyre time too I would expect massive gains, far above what we've seen so far.

Yes but you are ignoring that everyone is sandbagging. The quickest lap in Bahrain preseason last year was a 1.31.7.

Actually I'm not. Using the same factor of sandbagging from 2022 (1,2 seconds between fastest times in testing v quali), we will only be 1,4 seconds faster come 2023 quali compared to 2022. That's less than this purported tyre gain on it's own, which is why I doubt its validity. 1,5 seconds faster tyres + 10-20 kg lighter cars + more DF = way more than 1,4 seconds.

[Vanja #66]

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[AR3-GP]

They've traded some of their low efficiency downforce (RW) for high efficiency downforce (floor). Overall load the same, reduced drag. Nothing "insane" about it considering that would put them in the same boat as every other team, except most other teams kept the increased downforce instead of swapping to a low drag wing, at least in testing.

The Ferrari was already a relatively quick car in a straight line before the PU issues last season. It was really only second to RB. To now have found 10km/h at top speed, is remarkable, not something to dismiss.

You are overselling it. They may be faster in a straight line having the same load, but their main competitors have significantly more load without gaining drag. The RB is hitting similar top speed numbers as last season whilst clearly having more DF. The Merc has lost a lot of drag, the AM is faster on the straights and MUCH faster in the corners. Everyone has progressed, what we see from Ferrari is natural.

In a sheepish/half hearted effort to move back to the SF23 topic ( ) , I'll say that it's somewhat implied that the SF23 has more downforce than last season. The "same load, 10km/h more" is just a "reference point" so to speak. Ferrari isn't going to publish their absolute aero numbers any time soon.

Think of it like shifting the entire performance curve down on the drag axis of a lift-drag plot. The curve still increases, but it's in a far more efficient window.

[Cs98]

The Ferrari was already a relatively quick car in a straight line before the PU issues last season. It was really only second to RB. To now have found 10km/h at top speed, is remarkable, not something to dismiss.

You are overselling it. They may be faster in a straight line having the same load, but their main competitors have significantly more load without gaining drag. The RB is hitting similar top speed numbers as last season whilst clearly having more DF. The Merc has lost a lot of drag, the AM is faster on the straights and MUCH faster in the corners. Everyone has progressed, what we see from Ferrari is natural.

In a sheepish/half hearted effort to move back to the SF23 topic ( ) , I'll say that it's somewhat implied that the SF23 has more downforce than last season. The "same load, 10km/h more" is just a "reference point" so to speak. Ferrari isn't going to publish their absolute aero numbers any time soon.

Think of it like shifting the entire performance curve down on the drag axis of a lift-drag plot. The curve still increases, but it's in a far more efficient window.

Of course it's implied, they can run a smaller wing and generate the same load. What is not implied is that the car would generate more DF with that wing level.

[LM10]

You are overselling it. They may be faster in a straight line having the same load, but their main competitors have significantly more load without gaining drag. The RB is hitting similar top speed numbers as last season whilst clearly having more DF. The Merc has lost a lot of drag, the AM is faster on the straights and MUCH faster in the corners. Everyone has progressed, what we see from Ferrari is natural.

Ferrari already was a reasonably efficient car last season, considering it had the most downforce. It’s a different story to gain that much straight line speed and not lose downforce if you’re Ferrari and another story to decrease drag if you’re Mercedes or increase downforce if you’re Aston Martin. The starting points are different.

[Cs98]

You are overselling it. They may be faster in a straight line having the same load, but their main competitors have significantly more load without gaining drag. The RB is hitting similar top speed numbers as last season whilst clearly having more DF. The Merc has lost a lot of drag, the AM is faster on the straights and MUCH faster in the corners. Everyone has progressed, what we see from Ferrari is natural.

Ferrari already was a reasonably efficient car last season, considering it had the most downforce. It’s a different story to gain that much straight line speed and not lose downforce if you’re Ferrari and another story to decrease drag if you’re Mercedes or increase downforce if you’re Aston Martin. The starting points are different.

And RB was already a reasonably high DF car last season, now it looks like a downforce monster with little to no drag penalty and 20kg lighter. We can do this little dance all day, the point is EVERYONE has progressed by a wide margin, Ferrari included.

[AR3-GP]

You are overselling it. They may be faster in a straight line having the same load, but their main competitors have significantly more load without gaining drag. The RB is hitting similar top speed numbers as last season whilst clearly having more DF. The Merc has lost a lot of drag, the AM is faster on the straights and MUCH faster in the corners. Everyone has progressed, what we see from Ferrari is natural.

Ferrari already was a reasonably efficient car last season, considering it had the most downforce. It’s a different story to gain that much straight line speed and not lose downforce if you’re Ferrari and another story to decrease drag if you’re Mercedes or increase downforce if you’re Aston Martin. The starting points are different.

And RB was already a reasonably high DF car last season, now it looks like a downforce monster with little to no drag penalty and 20kg lighter. We can do this little dance all day, the point is EVERYONE has progressed by a wide margin, Ferrari included.

I never said no other car improved. I was simply focusing on the SF23 in the SF23 thread topic. I'm marveling at the drag reduction.

[Cs98]

I never said no other car improved. I was simply focusing on the SF23 in the SF23 thread topic. I'm marveling at the drag reduction.

The way this is described, I don't understand why anyone would bet against the SF23 next weekend.

10km/h for the same load? That's insane. No one will be able to compete with that.

You did a little more than that.

For the record, there is no requirement to grovel over the SF23 in the SF23 thread. I wanted to bring some balance to this discussion because I felt you were overselling the gains of the SF23. The gains may look "insane" when viewed in a vacuum. When viewed in light of what the other teams have been up to, particularly RB, not so insane. In fact it seems like a normal progression for a top team.

[SmallSoldier]

Ferrari Aero Rakes:









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