What if the breakaway happens?

[DaveKillens]

Has anyone else noticed that lately Bernie Ecclestone is being quiet? I wonder what he's up to now.

I'm really sick and tired of the pissing contests going on in here.

[outer_bongolia]

A breakaway series is actually the best way to have a top tier open wheel championship. Look at the advantages:

1) No FIA: We know what Mosley has done for the sport recently, especially the last two years: He got involved in a power struggle against FOTA while trying to claim the leadership of the sports. This resulted him coming up with crazy ideas like a spoiled 5 year old. The sport will be better off governing itself.
2) More money without CVC: You get to keep more of the income, the sport becomes more accessible for the spectators.

Of course there are some questions:
1) The numbers: It seems there are more teams registered in FIA-F1 at the moment, but a break away series might allow customer cars. We might be able to see 4 or 6 cars produced by McLaren or Ferrari. That would definitely make it exciting.
2) The manufacturers: This is the scary part. I am not sure if Mercedes, Renault, BMW, or Toyota would want to be still involved after this much BS and bad publicity being spun with FIA. Unless the teams can sell the advantage of a break away series to their mother companies, I suspect many of the manufacturers will continue to be involved with such a capricious overseer. But will they commit to the break away series?
3) Management: Is it too late for a new series to start? Will they be able to get venues while FIA/Mosley and FOM/Ecclestone trying their best to obstruct? Will they be able to get sponsorship, etc going? I cannot find a reason to be pessimistic. The worst part will be the TV rights, which will be bringing in lots of money. I do not know whether they will be able to get the deals.

Mosley and Ecclestone let this drag on for too long, and I just do not see this problem solved easily anymore. Not with so many new teams already signed up based on the current regulations. Not without Mosley quitting (he won't - he calls the current situation a success). And definitely not with some or many of the manufacturers if the current regulations stay.

[mx_tifoso]

Has anyone else noticed that lately Bernie Ecclestone is being quiet? I wonder what he's up to now.

He's been sick for the past few days, thats why he didn't attend the GP.

[gcdugas]

Has anyone else noticed that lately Bernie Ecclestone is being quiet? I wonder what he's up to now.

He's been sick for the past few days, thats why he didn't attend the GP.

Oh, I thought he didn't come because all the seats were filled.

[kilcoo316]

He's been sick for the past few days, thats why he didn't attend the GP.

Hopefully worried sick

[WhiteBlue]

I do not think that a break away would be good for the sport. Everybody who believes that the current mess is ugly needs to consider the damage done when the law suits start.

I am no friend of Bernie and I think he has got away much too long with his (and CVC's) profits. But starting a new series by breaking existing contracts would put the thing on the wrong foot to start with. The current legal situation was created by people agreeing to Bernies conditions and committing themselves.

If the teams do not want to continue with Bernie they should start their own series but when they are legally entitelt to do so, in 2013. Then all teams including Williams and FIF1 can participate and not only those which can afford to pay damages like Ferrari and Red Bull. F1 has no need to break up if they do it that way. The FIA would still be looking after safety (as they are the global body) but they could make their own rules if they run their own championsship.

I still had some reservations regarding the viability of a sport that belongs to some participants but at least the spectators and fans would not be depraved of a uniform series with continuity.

[Ciro Pabón]

I still had some reservations regarding the viability of a sport that belongs to some participants but at least the spectators and fans would not be deprived of a uniform series with continuity.

Well, that's the way most professional sports work in the States, if I'm not mistaken.

[donskar]

Has anyone else noticed that lately Bernie Ecclestone is being quiet? I wonder what he's up to now.

I'm really sick and tired of the pissing contests going on in here.

Kidney infection. Watched Turkey on his home 60" TV. Complained that the crowd was very small (36K) because the Turkish government hadn't promoted it enough. Apparently Bernie is the leas eholder, so he might actually have lost money.

[donskar]

I'm not sure it's about the cars, 18, 20, whatever.

It seems to me a row about the money.
Welcome to the wilderness. I've been the voice in the wilderness shouting, "It's the money, stupid" for several weeks now.

What FOM gets if they have the cars but not the income? How are they going to pay their debts?

Will, for example, the government of Australia (who is the one paying for F1, in the end) shell out 30 million for Force India and Williams?

I fail to see what's complicated about organizing a new series. I wonder what's so "enormous" in the task of opening an office in London, finding 17 tracks, (maybe even creating a track owner association) and doing a deal with a TV network.
Well, there are racing rules and regulations to agree to. Insurance. Transportation. Tracks to contact and contract. Catering. LOTS of interviews with multiple media. Sponsorship agreements to review and modify if necessary. Formal buy-in from the GPDA. Defusing of booby traps planted by FIA/FOM/Max/Bernie. Agreement on profit-sharing. Networks to contact, proposals and presentations to review before signing a TV contract (probably several). I'll be glad to retract "enormous" if that has caused your blood pressure to go up, but I do think "complicated" or "complex" are justified. No Gordian knots, but a lot of little things that need to be done by a pretty loosely knit organization that has miniml experience in this realm.

I think I, alone, could do it, specially without the interference of bureaucracy (that is, FIA) and thinking of a steady revenue, if not a double income, because I get rid of 50% FOM "royalties".

Don't forget FOTA has already bagged Monaco. Silverstone owners would be delighted. Nürburgring is yelling for a new deal. Australia is fed up. France is drifting. Valencia owner is under a judicial indictment. Italy will line up behind Ferrari, I think. Etc., etc., etc.

China, Singapore, Bahrain, even Turkey: what are they in F1? Nothing but a track in the middle of nothing, where the fans have to fly thousands of miles. Local fans cannot pay for the tickets or they are a minory.

The problem with F1, as I see it, is that the bussiness is broken. The interest payments and the capital payed to Ecclestone broke it long time ago.
You and I are in total agreement here. As I have said numerous time in various threads, the budget-cutting issue was to an extent a red herring or smoke screen to distract us from another key issue -- profit sharing. Yes, budgets are too high, but they would not need to be cut so drastically if profits were shared more equiably.

FOTA simply needs the balls to break FIA and I think they found them. Ballestre found himself in a very similar position decades ago: he who owns the TV deal, owns F1.

I fervently hope that you are right, but I hear wicked laughter at the end of this dark, twisted tunnel.

[WhiteBlue]

I still had some reservations regarding the viability of a sport that belongs to some participants but at least the spectators and fans would not be deprived of a uniform series with continuity.

Well, that's the way most professional sports work in the States, if I'm not mistaken.

I could name a few which I don't care to watch. If I had a choice I would prefer to see championship events run by clubs with open and fair rules regarding participation. What about the big golf tornaments? They are not organized by the PGA asfar as I know but they carry considerably more status. We used to have this in F1 with national clubs organizing GPs before Bernie got a bit megalomaniac.

If there is one thing I hate about the FIA it is the allmost unconditional commercialization Mosley has allowed Ecclestone to apply. There should have been much stronger rules about participation of national motor sport clubs in the promotion of F1. They should have got the job with preference over any other promoter under normal circumstances.

And the FIA should have set some fire under FOM/FOTA's ass to have at least 28 races during the year. Races in Arabia, Australia, Brazil, South Africa and other places in the southern hemishere with benighn winter climate can well be run in November and February. There is no need to shut down a world series for four months when winter hits Europe if you have a sensible scheme. In actual fact F1 could run with 3 weeks summer holidays and two weeks winter holidays to please the TV spectators.

[ISLAMATRON]

Even if a breakaway series is created, the FOTA teams should still impose a budget cap on themselves, and to be honest the one put forward by the FIA would be a good starting point.

I have no problem with the teams going for all the money, especially if it bankrupts CVC & FOM.
Just one question about a breakaway series?... who would officiate it, if not the FIA.

How would they decide the if the DDD was legal or not? Or check over another spygate? If they go with majority rule system(as they do in FOTA) the minority teams will start to disappear, maybe even switchover. That has been the role of the FIA since the inception of F1.


Who will be their arbitrator? We all know the teams themselves will never unanimously agree on anything.

[Beewill]

This sounds like as good idea as any. DORNA should have the resources and the know how to run a top racing series all over the world. Plus, this could mean some races comming back to the states in the future. =D>

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 5413.shtml

[WhiteBlue]

According to http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 60911.html Carmelo Ezpeleta has denied all involvement in this. It is German but is says the denial was also in Spanish.

This I think is a pretty good state of F1 article:

Formula One rules dispute suffers diminishing returns
Racing series COMMENTARY F1
Date 2009-06-09
By J.K. Thompson - Motorsport.com

Max's letter has arrived! Into the hands of news agency Reuters, that is. International Automobile Federation (FIA) president Max Molsey wrote to teams of the shrinking Formula One Teams Association (FOTA) last week to spell out his next negotiating ploy with what has become an all-too-public struggle for the sport's 2010 rules.



Max Mosley FIA President. Photo by www.formulatwo.com.


Somewhat short of "come home, all is forgiven," Mosley asked in his letter that the eight teams now signed up conditionally for next year's FIA Formula One World Championships -- drivers' and constructors' -- drop their conditions. "Then we'll talk," his message said. It is their unconditional sign-up that will give them a voice, Mosley wrote. Rules changes can be made only with the consent of all entered teams.

Ferrari, ringleader of this rebellion, BMW Sauber, Red Bull Racing -- both teams -- Renault, Toyota, Brawn GP and McLaren Mercedes met the FIA's May 29 entry deadline with the stipulation that Mosley's 40 million pound optional budget cap disappear and that a new sport-governing Concorde Agreement be signed before publication this Friday of next year's entries. Mosley brought team sign-up forward about six months over past years.

Mosley counters that a new Concorde Agreement, a document that stretches to 500 pages, cannot be formulated in such short order. Nor will Mosley move from the optional budget cap the teams say will put a rent in the championship.

"We are ready to begin discussions immediately with a view to signing an agreement without delay," Mosley's letter read. "However, there is no possibility of this being concluded in advance of setting the 2010 entry list, a draft of several hundred pages having been produced at the last moment. Also, the FIA will need to know who to discuss the draft with."

Well, he's got 'em there. Mosley's letter continues by observing that the sport will have new teams in 2010 and prospects are unlikely that all 2009 teams will participate in 2010. Ferrari's threatened departure has attracted worldwide attention, as intended. Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo is chairman of FOTA.

"It is, of course, up to you," Mosley's letter read, "but the simplest way to ensure that all entrants run under the same rules would be if everyone entered under the cost-cap rules as published and then all entrants co-operated to agree modifications to those rules which would make the proposition workable for all parties."

Mosley said the FIA has contacted potential new teams -- as many as 10 outfits are vying to join a field that will expand by three teams -- and learned those parties are amenable to further rules molding. Easy peasy, Mosley theorized.

FOTA acknowledged a reply to Mosley's letter, Reuters reported, but would not elaborate on contents. FOTA's members in good standing are down to eight -- notably all the manufacturer teams -- after Williams F1 and Force India signed up for 2010 unconditionally and were suspended. Both team owners cited legal obligations for defecting from the previous unity of the teams group. The FIA cited contractual obligation for Ferrari's 2010 participation. Reuters reported FOTA teams are scheduled to meet Wednesday.

BBC Sport reported remarks reaching the FIA indicate the eight FOTA teams will fall into line and withdraw their conditions before Friday.

Both sides in this battle make the sport's annual "silly season" -- the game of guessing who's going where for the next go-round -- look like intellectual discourse. While headlines attempt to follow every turn and twist of this drama, the situation requires a bit of levelheadedness such as the observation by BBC Sport F1 reporter Holly Samos, who commented during race coverage, where groups have met in Monaco and Turkey, that the dribs and drabs coming out about discussions don't give a full view of progress. Duly noted.




Ross Brawn Team Principal, Brawn GP . Photo by xpb.cc.

More to the point, savvy surveyor Ross Brawn, new owner of Brawn GP, current leader of the 2009 championships, points out that potential sponsors look at the the apparent chaos embroiling the sport and don't want to be a part of it. In remarks to ITV, the newest team owner on the grid said the turmoil creates confusion among sponsors, hampers current teams such as his who are trying to line up sponsorship, and it hurts new teams who can't describe to potential sponsors just what Formula One they'll be part of next year. Even if Sir Jackie Stewart said it first, the observation holds: Argy-bargy is bad for the sport.

''Nobody is able to progress on the commercial front today because of the uncertainty," Brawn said. "So it's damaging for everybody, not just the the teams that have made a conditional entry, it is damaging to teams trying to enter."

Brawn GP cars remain remarkably uncluttered by sponsor signage. The team shows four "partners" along with Bridgestone, tire supplier to every team. Williams F1 nearly quadruples that number. McLaren Mercedes counts 10 partners (and Bridgestone) and an additional 16 suppliers. Scrambling for sponsorship is F1's race behind the race.

Everyone involved agrees the sport needs to cut spending (hence the attempt to go green, kinetic energy recovery systems, has bit the dust). Everyone involved agrees the sport needs to retain sponsors, not to mention fans (witness nearly vacant grandstands in Turkey). Not everyone agrees how to accomplish these goals.

Trying to argue their cases in public, as both sides have done, merely annoys fans, sponsors and promoters. So knock it off, guys, because you've hit the DRs, diminishing returns. We trust you'll sort it out in the end, but how much damage -- and ill will -- will you leave behind?

[outer_bongolia]

Now Bernie is showing his fangs:

“Apart from my contracts with teams, if somebody went to any of our contracted people, companies, television contractors, we would view it very seriously.

“That would be inducement to breach contracts and I don’t do that myself so I won’t stand back and let it happen. Any action could run to hundreds of millions of pounds, who knows how much?”

http://www.express.co.uk/motorsport/vie ... ring-teams

[Conceptual]

Now Bernie is showing his fangs:

“Apart from my contracts with teams, if somebody went to any of our contracted people, companies, television contractors, we would view it very seriously.

“That would be inducement to breach contracts and I don’t do that myself so I won’t stand back and let it happen. Any action could run to hundreds of millions of pounds, who knows how much?”

http://www.express.co.uk/motorsport/vie ... ring-teams

I guess this is part of my "clueless" belief that having Bernie aligned with the breakaway team would make it easier to happen.

Because the incentive may not be money, but the fact that if Bernie was part of it, he wouldn't need to pursue the legalities involved with breaking these contracts.

If you can't beat them, join them.

But, once again, as kilcoo continues to say, I am clueless. It is amazing how an engineer knows so much about business. Or pretends to at least...