2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
User avatar
organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

The quotes from merc engineers in said AMuS article:
. "Red Bull has fallen from one extreme to the other. Last year it was the car that was highest at the back. Now it's the lowest at the rear axle," says Mercedes technical director Mike Elliott.
"If we were to drive so low, the underbody would break for us," compares Toto Wolff.
"The traction is breathtaking," confirms Wolff.
Of course, doesn't make it true, but wanted to clear it up that there are actual quotes in there on the topic

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
365
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

mechanoit wrote:
28 Feb 2023, 15:48
pursue_one's wrote:
27 Feb 2023, 23:59
AMuS reports that apparently the ground clearance of the RB19 is at least 10 millimetres below everyone else. Toto Wolff says their floor would break if they would do the same. Also Mercedes engineers claim to have noticed that the AMR23 drives at a lower ride height too, and despite that, gets over the bumps well. It is also strong on corner exit. The comparison with Aston Martin is interesting for Mercedes because they supply Aston Martin with the engine, gearbox and rear suspension.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... rain-2023/
I made a lengthy post in the general aerodynamics topic that could be related to this. First I have to say I am unsure how true this rumour is. There doesn’t seem to be a direct quote from Wolff or any Mercedes engineers, just AMuS reporting of it supposedly.

If we assume that Mercedes did say this and further assume it is true, then I see some potential link to my earlier post in the general aerodynamics topic. I noted there that Red Bull could one and/or two potential ways to achieve this. One is to bleed off any excess downforce produced after a certain point as ride height compresses with increased car speed and corresponding increase in downforce. Such a bleed off or aerodynamic “vent” or “relief valve” (not literal relief valve) could stop the ride height compressing further which can result in the floor entering choke or stall zone that sets off porpoising. Such an aerodynamic “vent” could even be as simple as having a tuned floor edge together with other associated upstream control surfaces, that allow some small losses under the floor at the desired speed which counteracts further downforce from building up. The second way, and which could even be used in combination with the first way, is they’ve found a way to get some type of inertia damping or equivalent effect even though hydraulic and mechanical devices have been banned.

The Red Bull doesn’t run stiff, and in fact seems notably softer sprung relative to other cars. This is quite obvious to see when it rides the kerbs and hits bumps on the track. It seems to absorb vertical accelerations almost entirely within its suspension. Yet it can run low, maximising the high downforce zone for the venturi floor and not stall the floor even when it hits bumps on the track and the ride compresses. I still struggle to understand how they are doing it. I am leaning towards them simply designing a floor that isn’t too aggressive in how the venturi constricts and opens up again, so their peak downforce isn’t very high but the operating zone is much wider. Tuning the floor seems to be key. Not enough of an aggressive venturi, and downforce produced is too low. Too aggressive, and downforce produced is too high for the fast straights and fast corners. Almost seems like they need a specific floor for each type of track. Of course all of this is just guess work but I find it intriguing.
I think you have a great theory on this. I don't think it's much to do with front suspension as AMUS hints. I very much think it's the floor aero. We've already seen Mercedes' handy work last season. A car that is far too sensitive to rideheight to be run low. It may still retain some of those characteristics as the car is still their own design, revised. It will tend towards having the same DNA.

Also regarding suspension, Ride depends on both front and rear suspension. It's silly to think somehow the front suspension alone is responsible for the ride quality of the floor near the rear of the car.
A lion must kill its prey.

User avatar
pursue_one's
97
Joined: 28 Mar 2021, 04:50

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

“What about Mercedes, a lot of doom and gloom in terms of the reporting of how they got on this week,” Slater said on Sky Sports F1’s 2023 season preview.

“I was speaking to a senior figure from the team today who said that it was overly gloomy, the assessment of where they’re at, saying: Don’t forget, this is testing. We are developing a car not specifically for Bahrain, but to be the best car over the year. We have more parts that come. We expected based on Red Bull’s performance last year to have to start the season behind them, that is possibly – and they use the term possibly – where we will start. And they also said but we do think we’re in a fight a good scrap with Aston Martin and with Ferrari for second place. "


User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: 02 Nov 2019, 10:05
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

A great deal of unsubstantiated driver contract talk & following driver Y wouldn’t do this & that with this team or the other has been removed.

This will continue to happen as long as threads are derailed; I/we know that you are all really excited for the season to start, but you all know the posting rules.

A very interesting off topic (not single team related) part has been moved to the General Aero Thread; this is regarding correlation and CFD.

Please try and keep ALL threads on-topic, the mods all have proper jobs in the real-world…

Thread now unlocked!
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Venturiation
Venturiation
98
Joined: 04 Jan 2023, 19:48

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

mechanoit wrote:
28 Feb 2023, 15:48
pursue_one's wrote:
27 Feb 2023, 23:59
AMuS reports that apparently the ground clearance of the RB19 is at least 10 millimetres below everyone else. Toto Wolff says their floor would break if they would do the same. Also Mercedes engineers claim to have noticed that the AMR23 drives at a lower ride height too, and despite that, gets over the bumps well. It is also strong on corner exit. The comparison with Aston Martin is interesting for Mercedes because they supply Aston Martin with the engine, gearbox and rear suspension.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... rain-2023/
I made a lengthy post in the general aerodynamics topic that could be related to this. First I have to say I am unsure how true this rumour is. There doesn’t seem to be a direct quote from Wolff or any Mercedes engineers, just AMuS reporting of it supposedly.

If we assume that Mercedes did say this and further assume it is true, then I see some potential link to my earlier post in the general aerodynamics topic. I noted there that Red Bull could one and/or two potential ways to achieve this. One is to bleed off any excess downforce produced after a certain point as ride height compresses with increased car speed and corresponding increase in downforce. Such a bleed off or aerodynamic “vent” or “relief valve” (not literal relief valve) could stop the ride height compressing further which can result in the floor entering choke or stall zone that sets off porpoising. Such an aerodynamic “vent” could even be as simple as having a tuned floor edge together with other associated upstream control surfaces, that allow some small losses under the floor at the desired speed which counteracts further downforce from building up. The second way, and which could even be used in combination with the first way, is they’ve found a way to get some type of inertia damping or equivalent effect even though hydraulic and mechanical devices have been banned.

The Red Bull doesn’t run stiff, and in fact seems notably softer sprung relative to other cars. This is quite obvious to see when it rides the kerbs and hits bumps on the track. It seems to absorb vertical accelerations almost entirely within its suspension. Yet it can run low, maximising the high downforce zone for the venturi floor and not stall the floor even when it hits bumps on the track and the ride compresses. I still struggle to understand how they are doing it. I am leaning towards them simply designing a floor that isn’t too aggressive in how the venturi constricts and opens up again, so their peak downforce isn’t very high but the operating zone is much wider. Tuning the floor seems to be key. Not enough of an aggressive venturi, and downforce produced is too low. Too aggressive, and downforce produced is too high for the fast straights and fast corners. Almost seems like they need a specific floor for each type of track. Of course all of this is just guess work but I find it intriguing.
Will we be able to see this if the car gets lifted ?
This explains that maybe fallows knew the trick used in the RB19 and is using it now wich enables the AM23 to run so low while using Mercedes suspensions
In the AM23 the front suspension is same philosophy as the W14

mechanoit
mechanoit
12
Joined: 28 Dec 2021, 15:47

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

No idea and don’t even know if my theory has merit. Just makes sense to me. I’ve read these reports about RB19 and AM23 doing something strange around the front axle but haven’t heard the basis behind the claims.

User avatar
ringo
230
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

I wont ignore the rear suspension and gearbox because it's the same as mercedes and AMR. I am sure they are free to change parts as they see fit.
The aero must work with the suspension to do what redbull is doing and the key is dropping then holding the floor right above the asphalt.
Judgeing by the Brazil race, something must have happened there for the W13 to work really well and for the redbull to be way off. For me it was suspension and its subsequent tyre temperature impact.
For Sure!!

f1jcw
f1jcw
17
Joined: 21 Feb 2019, 21:15

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

All around I see either a lot of pessimism or trumpet glee at Merc going to be 3rd or 4th, or by some even ,lower!

I am cautiously optimistic and think they will surprise the nay sayers if not at the 1st race but in the 1st three races.

Venturiation
Venturiation
98
Joined: 04 Jan 2023, 19:48

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

do teams use the lowest possible ride height in testing ?

or is the W14 as the same height as W13 to compare it and do correlation with the simulator same as the rear wing situation?

User avatar
zeroday
2
Joined: 29 Jan 2023, 16:25

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

Venturiation wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 23:59
do teams use the lowest possible ride height in testing ?

or is the W14 as the same height as W13 to compare it and do correlation with the simulator same as the rear wing situation?
From what i read W14 was trying to mimic a lot of the same stuff as the W13 Bahrain testing to correlate data. They even used the same barn door wing as W13 for all 3 days. So their massive drag during testing was on purpose. Merc said they won't be using that wing in the first race.

Venturiation
Venturiation
98
Joined: 04 Jan 2023, 19:48

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

zeroday wrote:
02 Mar 2023, 00:37
Venturiation wrote:
01 Mar 2023, 23:59
do teams use the lowest possible ride height in testing ?

or is the W14 as the same height as W13 to compare it and do correlation with the simulator same as the rear wing situation?
From what i read W14 was trying to mimic a lot of the same stuff as the W13 Bahrain testing to correlate data. They even used the same barn door wing as W13 for all 3 days. So their massive drag during testing was on purpose. Merc said they won't be using that wing in the first race.
but what about ride height

mzso
mzso
65
Joined: 05 Apr 2014, 14:52

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

Henk_v wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 14:25
If you can't brake and hit the apex with that barndoor. How on earth is a smaller wing going to help?
With awesome oversteer?

mzso
mzso
65
Joined: 05 Apr 2014, 14:52

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

Maybe this is this clairvoyant?
Image

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

No Redbull side pods are coming. Zero pods confirmed by Mike Elliot.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

Post

Podium is a joyous result for us this weekend. If we don't get that we will be good to grab a fith place. At we'd be least in front of Aston Martin.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028