Diesel: the future

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Diesel: the future

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pieter1 wrote:
Johan wrote:Well, I was thinking about the Lemans. Audi is driving with diesel, and Peugeot as well. Is this something for the Formula 1? I prefer it, because a team can make less pitstops, and faster accelerating is also there.

Maybe I forgot the bad things? :o

le mans is a different story, f1 needs a lot of HP to attract people and i doubt that you will be watching F1 if they will use V4 1.8L Turbo engines...LM P1 diesel engines are V10 5 to 6 liter and thats too much for an F1 car (2.4L V8)...I hope they will not make such a silly moe as this would not help the f1 at all.
Le Mans is totally different indeed. Allan McNish has compared this with a complete F1 season rolled into one race. obviously you need completely different reliability and servicebility. regarding the next F1 engine one can only speculate.

There seem to be a power limit of 700-800 hbp which seems to suit F1 quite well. I expect the discussion to start with such a base figure. next they will probably take away the equivalent of the regenerated heat and brake energy which could be as much as 250 bhp. so effectively they could be targeting a raw engine power of 500 bhp. thermodynamic efficiency would stipulate a look at turbodiesels which would pull down the revs considerably back to numbers where the classic Ford V8 were and even lower. this would probably be driven by the manufacturers who would like an engine close to performance road car specs. so they can detune it for reliability and use it in top models. if I had to make a guess I would look at a 2L V6 with relatively high rpm (10,000)and high boost. the high rpm would be for sound and also for low engine weigt. but as I have said this is pure speculation. we may see breaks throughs in ICE eficiency in the coming years which would lead to very different numbers.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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peteskar
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Diesel in F1

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With the rules changing all the time, fuel shortages and pollution issues; do you think there is any possiblity of diesel coming into play for F1?
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Scotracer
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Re: Diesel in F1

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The engines would have to be large to produce the required performance and then they'd be very heavy. I seriously doubt you'd be able to package a diesel engine into a 620kg (from next year) chassis.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Diesel in F1

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The credit crunch has put a new engine formula out of question for several years imo. So an introduction is not likely to start before 2012 or 2013.

Diesel should be on the list due to good combustion efficiency and the potential to run all kind of bio generated fuels. On the other hand diesels would run lower rpm and would make a lot less noise due to filters for cleaning them. That is a problem for the entertainment factor that F1 seeks. The noise lovers would have a problem there. So it would be a question of how the values of the rule makers would evolve in the next few years.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

ESPImperium
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Re: Diesel in F1

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Id like to see Diesel power in F1, but as a iontroduction, it should be ran along alongside the current blocks, but be unlimited in power and RPM, basically open regs to make them compeditive as i feel that Diesel power is much heavier in weight than petrol.

Would probably entice Audi and Pugeot into the sport.

DaveKillens
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Re: Diesel in F1

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WhiteBlue wrote:The credit crunch has put a new engine formula out of question for several years imo. So an introduction is not likely to start before 2012 or 2013.

Diesel should be on the list due to good combustion efficiency and the potential to run all kind of bio generated fuels. On the other hand diesels would run lower rpm and would make a lot less noise due to filters for cleaning them. That is a problem for the entertainment factor that F1 seeks. The noise lovers would have a problem there. So it would be a question of how the values of the rule makers would evolve in the next few years.
I'm in total agreement.
Problem is, 5000 RPM is just about the maximum they can turn, due to the fuel burn times. I've been to a lot of local road races, and of course, seem a lot of Porsches. They go like stink, have a great history, yet the drone from that flat 6 cylinder engine fails to get me excited. I fear that would be the same in Formula One.
Racing cars have to go fast, look fast, and sound fast.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

jesterdog
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Re: Diesel in F1

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DaveKillens wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:The credit crunch has put a new engine formula out of question for several years imo. So an introduction is not likely to start before 2012 or 2013.

Diesel should be on the list due to good combustion efficiency and the potential to run all kind of bio generated fuels. On the other hand diesels would run lower rpm and would make a lot less noise due to filters for cleaning them. That is a problem for the entertainment factor that F1 seeks. The noise lovers would have a problem there. So it would be a question of how the values of the rule makers would evolve in the next few years.
I'm in total agreement.
Problem is, 5000 RPM is just about the maximum they can turn, due to the fuel burn times. I've been to a lot of local road races, and of course, seem a lot of Porsches. They go like stink, have a great history, yet the drone from that flat 6 cylinder engine fails to get me excited. I fear that would be the same in Formula One.
Racing cars have to go fast, look fast, and sound fast.

Right on!!! Bring back the 19k revs!!! They ought to bring back turbos as well...

wesley123
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Re: Diesel in F1

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Why not make a V4 bi turbo diesel engine, much cleaner and less consumption, cars get compacter too.
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adam2007
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Re: Diesel in F1

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use petrol, diesel is crap for racing cars who wants to be waiting on the throttle all the time. yes i know they can have to differnet sized turbos to reduce the turbo lag at lower rpm but petrol is still more potent.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Diesel in F1

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adam2007 wrote:use petrol, diesel is crap for racing cars who wants to be waiting on the throttle all the time...
I believe the LMP1 diesels are not that crappy in terms of performance. They are just very quiet.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Diesel in F1

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mx_tifosi wrote:Here is a two page thread about diesel engines in Formula One. These two threads should probably get merged.

:arrow: Diesel: the future - F1Techical
I agree. I merged the two threads, to give it a little more depth. Thanks, peteskar, for reviving it.
Ciro

Dukeage
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Re: Diesel: the future

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Bear in mind that diesels are running to a completely different formula (different restrictor sizes, capacities and similar) to the petrols, they are practically a separate class.

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safeaschuck
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Re: Diesel: the future

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Perhaps not the most useful point being made here, but...

I think you have to look to trends within the road car market to gauge the extent of diesels future in motorsport, the last time i heard a (probably inaccurate) statistic diesel counted for half of all passenger car sales in Europe.

It was commercial pressure from manufacturers of leading edge diesel engines that brought this whole situation in the first place and as more manufacturers up the ante it is likely more will push for it.

Evidence of Manufacturers using performance and prestige to sell diesel models is everywhere, diesel Jag anyone? so you would imagine this will filter through to motorsport in an attempt to show a perceived advantage in, say a BMW diesel.

F1 however, the range topper, well.... As long as the BMW M3 has a petrol motor, so will F1. How's that for common sense thinking? And if they do bring out a parallel M3d (inevitable surely) it will have to be faster round the Top Gear track before we see any hint of DERV in F1.

CMSMJ1
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Re: Diesel: the future

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Oh come on.. Diesel is for trains and trucks...

Peformance engines should be high revving beasts...not supercharged/turbocharged lumps of stinking derv.

Diesel passsenger cars are popular due to the perception of greater fuel efficiency.


edit for typo..
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Re: Diesel: the future

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I love the sound of the turbo diesels... Quiet!

The reason I watch racing on TV and not in person is directly related to the noise level.

Maybe I have just outgrown that connection between my ears and my libido?

Over-loud engines don't turn me on. The BEST of anything is what really lights my candle, and the ICE is, at this point, too old to be the BEST.