What if the breakaway happens?

[gcdugas]

Totally agree with you DK. The detail I would add is the principle that contracts must be respected. If the teams stop to sign Bernies contracts pretty soon they can do their own series. If they break his contracts (Red Bull, Toro Rosso, FIF1, Ferrari, Williams) they will have to have the money to compensate him. Knowing Bernie it will not be a small bill. It would be better to negotiate a settlement this time and break away clean in 2013. But the clock ticks and there is not much time now to sort this.

Before they did that they would do the parallel/simultaneous thing. Do you really think they are going to decimate their staff only to have to rebuild it back up again in two years time as they prepare for 2013? Contrary to what Max thinks, companies care about their people and don't treat them like garbage. Every time a manufacturer team withdrew from F1 they took care of their people. Every time.

We are seeing last desperate gasp of dying men.... yawn. If you remember Jacques Villeneuve started crying "But I've got a contract" when he saw the axe looming too. That didn't stop BMW from replacing him with Robert Kubica either. If there is ANY legal obligation on any FOTA team that remains after Max has breached every document I will be very surprised but even then the teams have steeled their resolve. They are now one. If they have to show up next year for any reason MM and BCE won't like it one bit.

Does the FIA delight in smearing the teams as "rebels"? Well then just show them what a rebel can do. The teams can all just show up to the FOM/FIA races with old cars plastered with FOTA stickers, no motor homes, no hospitality, no name drivers, no pace, and a budget of $500,000 to transport it all. If the cars fail to pre-qualify, you can start packing your bags on Saturday rather than Sunday. This could be cheaper than all the lawyers.

They can start a FOTA series simultaneously with real cars, real drivers, real sponsors, real financial distribution, real governance, real rules, and real racing.

Word to Bernie and Max... Ghosen calling you "intermediaries" means you are dispensable in the eyes of FOTA if you fail to provide a valid service at a market price. This means they want sound governance, equitable distribution of commercial revenue, and are ready to provide it themselves if you won't. Sign the new Concorde Agreement as it exists from the FOTA or be prepared to see the teams walk... even if they have to show up with token cars until 2012 (which should cost them $1.5M @ $500K/yr.). The teams can make FOM-F1 a joke with empty grandstands and abysmally low TV ratings at the great teams of Brabham, Lotus, March and Lola battle it out for the mighty Cosworth crown. Yuji Ide vs. Alex Yoong... Wow, makes me want to tune in.

BTW, how much will Bernie/FOM have to fork over to TV outlets and promoters in lawsuits if this happens? How many TV spots will they sell if no one cares? Will it even be live broadcast? What will THAT do to CVC/FOM's coffers?

[astracrazy]

Just looking at the design changes forced by regulation changes since 1995 will tell the story why F1 has become such an expensive sport.

And one huge huge example of this is KERS. What a waste of millions of pounds.

Perhaps the FIA should spend alot more time on regulation changes, bring in input from drivers, designers etc. Every change costs the teams millions of pounds, then the FIA complains about how much the teams are spending. Its a never ending circle of mess.

[DaveKillens]

I don't pretend to be a lawyer, so my assumptions are general.
If a team submits an entry for competition in Formula One for 2010 and Max does not accept their entry, then it's quite easy for that team to say that since they were not allowed to compete because of Max's decision, go sue the FIA. And I'm quite sure that when the teams drew up their entries with conditions attached, this scenario was considered. The conditions are that for 2010 Formula One regulations remain the same as they are. So since Max is the agent for forcing new conditions such as the budget cap and other crap, and since any commitment any team made was before these changes were introduced, any obligation is null and void.

[jddh1]

We are seeing last desperate gasp of dying men.... yawn. If you remember Jacques Villeneuve started crying "But I've got a contract" when he saw the axe looming too. That didn't stop BMW from replacing him with Robert Kubica either.

JV still got paid the rest of the way though, so there's a small difference there. But something similar can be done as you mention below.

The teams can all just show up to the FOM/FIA races with old cars plastered with FOTA stickers, no motor homes, no hospitality, no name drivers, no pace, and a budget of $500,000 to transport it all. If the cars fail to pre-qualify, you can start packing your bags on Saturday rather than Sunday. This could be cheaper than all the lawyers.

I'd love to see that. I would laugh so hard. Please, let's send letters to the teams to urge them to do so. Please.

They can start a FOTA series simultaneously with real cars, real drivers, real sponsors, real financial distribution, real governance, real rules, and real racing.

I'm all for it. However, it will not be as easy as some think to set up, unless they have already started. I think the sponsors will follow the teams even thought the existing contracts will be void since it will not be Formula 1 anymore, but rather, I don't know, Super Formula or Super GP (there's a few interesting series names.)

The teams can make FOM-F1 a joke with empty grandstands and abysmally low TV ratings at the great teams of Brabham, Lotus, March and Lola battle it out for the mighty Cosworth crown. Yuji Ide vs. Alex Yoong... Wow, makes me want to tune in.

Although, we all know now that the Lutus team is not from the Lotus factory, but rather some team trying to steal their name. Same with Brabham. So whomever says that these teams are legit, no they're not.

BTW, how much will Bernie/FOM have to fork over to TV outlets and promoters in lawsuits if this happens? How many TV spots will they sell if no one cares? Will it even be live broadcast? What will THAT do to CVC/FOM's coffers?

If Ferrari and others have token teams, Bernie won't be sued because technically the names are there. But they won't sell much of anything because I'll be sleeping in on Sundays during live broadcasts.
CVC will probably try to cut it's losses and sell, losing 3 billion USD in the process.
Which leads me to the question: Is Bernie's divorce well thought in advance? Did he see this happening and had his wife take the cash so that when CVC sues he can claim to have no income? I doubt myself here, but it's a theory I suppose.

Anyway, good post GCdugas. I agree with you on most points.

But I'd like to ask Tomba and other honored fellow board members. Why not send a letter to FOTA for a pre-entry agreement for a customer team in the new series? We have some pretty good skill lurking these forums and I wouldn't mind being a back marker in the Super GP or Super Formula, whatever you wanna call it. If FiF1 can get everything from other teams, why can't we? Over a period of 2-3 seasons we can then start building our own infrastructure with the loads of money received from the promotional entity. Ideas?

[WhiteBlue]

DK, I believe you are in error there. A conditional entry is a void entry legally unless the conditions are accepted, of course. So a void application would not change the legal status of previous contracts.

The solution suggested by gcdugas appears a legal one on first sight. Nobody can stop a team to compete unsuccessfully and without sponsors. The problem with that one might be convincing the sponsors to switch to another parallel series and potential non compete clauses for the teams which have signed with Bernie. Bernie created his empire out of exactly the same situation we have now. It would be pretty dumb not to consider a potential repeat by someone else. I'm not saying that it cannot be done. I just think it would be very expensive for some teams and would split F1 if it is done now. So personally I would like to see it avoided and see the last minute talks achieve a settlement.

[Germanengineering]

Who needs more gossip on this site. There will be no other series and Ferrari is not leaving.

[gcdugas]

The teams can all just show up to the FOM/FIA races with old cars plastered with FOTA stickers, no motor homes, no hospitality, no name drivers, no pace, and a budget of $500,000 to transport it all. If the cars fail to pre-qualify, you can start packing your bags on Saturday rather than Sunday. This could be cheaper than all the lawyers.

I'd love to see that. I would laugh so hard. Please, let's send letters to the teams to urge them to do so. Please.

OK, send it to here: info@teamsassociation.org from this page. Damn, now my cover is blown as a secret operative for FOTA...

[donskar]

Any word on today's Mosley-FOTA meeting?

[jddh1]

The teams can all just show up to the FOM/FIA races with old cars plastered with FOTA stickers, no motor homes, no hospitality, no name drivers, no pace, and a budget of $500,000 to transport it all. If the cars fail to pre-qualify, you can start packing your bags on Saturday rather than Sunday. This could be cheaper than all the lawyers.

I'd love to see that. I would laugh so hard. Please, let's send letters to the teams to urge them to do so. Please.

OK, send it to here: info@teamsassociation.org from this page. Damn, now my cover is blown as a secret operative for FOTA...

AHAHA

Oh and by the way, on the page above, they still have Williams and Fifi listed as FOTA members. LOL. Look to the left hand side logos.

[jon-mullen]

I still sent them a letter. Good thing I didn't say anything anything disparaging about Force India! Boy would I have been embarrassed!

[outer_bongolia]

DK, I believe you are in error there. A conditional entry is a void entry legally unless the conditions are accepted, of course. So a void application would not change the legal status of previous contracts.

The solution suggested by gcdugas appears a legal one on first sight. Nobody can stop a team to compete unsuccessfully and without sponsors. The problem with that one might be convincing the sponsors to switch to another parallel series and potential non compete clauses for the teams which have signed with Bernie. Bernie created his empire out of exactly the same situation we have now. It would be pretty dumb not to consider a potential repeat by someone else. I'm not saying that it cannot be done. I just think it would be very expensive for some teams and would split F1 if it is done now. So personally I would like to see it avoided and see the last minute talks achieve a settlement.

Well, most of the sponsors support more than one series, including multiple motorsports. Can't it be arranged for the sponsors to give a very minimum, so that the non compete clause would not apply?

I agree that a settlement would be a best case scenario. Yet I suspect that we will not see Renault nor Toyota in 2010 in that case.

[gcdugas]

DK, I believe you are in error there. A conditional entry is a void entry legally unless the conditions are accepted, of course. So a void application would not change the legal status of previous contracts.

The solution suggested by gcdugas appears a legal one on first sight. Nobody can stop a team to compete unsuccessfully and without sponsors. The problem with that one might be convincing the sponsors to switch to another parallel series and potential non compete clauses for the teams which have signed with Bernie. Bernie created his empire out of exactly the same situation we have now. It would be pretty dumb not to consider a potential repeat by someone else. I'm not saying that it cannot be done. I just think it would be very expensive for some teams and would split F1 if it is done now. So personally I would like to see it avoided and see the last minute talks achieve a settlement.

Well, most of the sponsors support more than one series, including multiple motorsports. Can't it be arranged for the sponsors to give a very minimum, so that the non compete clause would not apply?

I agree that a settlement would be a best case scenario. Yet I suspect that we will not see Renault nor Toyota in 2010 in that case.

Bluff! Non-compete clauses are only legal when it is the seller of a business agreeing to restrain his activities to protect/induce someone to buy his business. There are no clauses legal that can restrict the activity of non-owner parties. Sorry WB... try again.

And regarding OuterBongolia's comment about Toyota and Renault... Why does he think Ferrari will compete?

[gcdugas]

Ronaldo signs for the cost of two 2010 F1 teams.... just a little perspective.

[WhiteBlue]

Unless I'm very mistaken the Concorde Agreement included a non compete clause. The teams that started in F1 could not drive for another open wheel series. Is it so far fetched to assume Bernie wrote the same clause into his contracts in 2005 and 2006? It is just an idea and I may be wrong but many people had access to the old concords, so it will not be hard to check that.

One of the good things about the changes from the old concord is the fact that the FIA do not require the participants of the championship to have a contract with Bernie. That was taken out of the regulations for the 2006 season. There is no formal requirement for a Concord Agreement and for a contract with Bernie So they can allways go off and do their own thing when they have no contract with the man. As a consequence teams can now join F1 without being signatories to a concord.

2004 F1 Sporting Regulations 1 / 36 12 December 2003
GENERAL UNDERTAKING
3) All drivers, competitors and officials participating in the Championship undertake, on behalf of
themselves, their employees and agents, to observe all the provisions as supplemented or
amended of the International Sporting Code (the Code), the Formula One Technical
Regulations (the Technical Regulations) and the present Sporting Regulations together with all
the provisions of the 1998 Concorde Agreement (the Agreement) of which they have had due
notice.
4) The Championship is governed by the Agreement and its schedules.

A comparison will show that this clause has been missing since 2006.

[outer_bongolia]

And regarding OuterBongolia's comment about Toyota and Renault... Why does he think Ferrari will compete?

You're right about my omission. Domenicali also had said Ferrari would not compete in 2010 with the current rules.