2023 Alpine F1 Team

[zoroastar]

Has there been any Ocon sightings? i heard that he had 3 hours left in penalty time about 2 hours ago.

[peewon]

There is a lot of wrong doings in Enstone. It's hard to pin point who is exactly to blame. It's not just one person. And all new facilities, all investments and hiring over 300 people feel now like huge waste of money. I dont think even making internal changes and shuffling anymore can help situation. It's just a big f mess. I dont think anyone wants to hear that. But that an actual fact and situation in what Alpine is right now.



Renault as manufacturer completely botched their re-entry in F1 in 2016 and since then done only marginal improvements. And had nowhere near improvements or achievements since then to call this stint success. They are simply unable to build fast F1 cars anymore. My personal opinion is there is not enough talented people, designers in Enstone who know how to do it. And over years they were unable from management stand point recognize and hire people who know how to build fast cars.

At this point selling a team would be best case scenario. Because I dont see anything changes in next month, next year, next decade or even next century.

The issues start from the top. De Meo should have recruited Dan Fallows and Eric Blandin and a bunch of the people who went from Mercedes HPP to RBPT. Instead, Aston Martin took Fallows and Blandin, and RB took the Merc PU people.

Why would people like Blandin and Fallows choose a customer team rather than a works outfit like Alpine to try and push it up the grid. Before the transfers, Racing Point and Alpine were both middling teams. Why didn't they pick Alpine, a team who controls it's only engine supply and has it's own windtunnel?

There's a serious lack of ambition in every move this team continues to make, from the signing of Ocon for 4 years, to losing the Alonso-Piastri lineup, the hiring of Otmar, the inability to look attractive to very talented technical staff, and the lack of investment. Everything they've done since the beginning of the hybrid era has been "too little too late" and it ends up costing them more to do things shoddily the first time, and then have to do an overhaul of a bad design the next year. People like to make excuses about the resources of the big 3, but Aston Martin put paid to that.

Some will say Aston Martin don't make this and that and buy this and that, but the reality is you only take the hit on the investment in a gearbox and a suspension in the first year of the new regulations (As long as you were incompetent enough to build the wrong design from the outset, which is what Alpine did...). From the second year onwards you shouldn't need to spend any more money on those components beyond small refinements. Alpine shouldn't have had to "redesign" their suspension in the second year, after "redesigning it" for the first year. That's incompetence. Everything smacks of "not good enough". The trajectory of this team does not make sense. They don't have a "do anything it takes to win" attitude otherwise they would have bought out Ocon's contract in order to keep Alonso and Piastri.

Alpine/Renault realized that the marketing still works even if they aren't the best and the team makes money too. There's no motivation to seriously change that I see. Engineering isn't special. Drivers aren't special.

If they are serious, they will start a big recruitment campaign from Ferrari, Mercedes, Red Bull, Aston Martin and start looking towards the 2026 regulations.

I'll preface by saying that I expect Alpine to finish 5th at worst this season. But,
I have felt the same about their lack of ambition as you for a while. Its well known they were considering whether to stay in F1 or not before De Meo took over. So it made sense they weren't going all in in terms of investment, specially with a bureaucratic structure. But De Meo made all the right noises and switch to Alpine brand seemed like a commitment towards that direction.

Everything since then has been a bit of a headscratcher. Ocon extension was confusing. Deciding to push the new split turbo PU to 2022 was also weird. You would probably want to trial run it before the new regulations and have it running perfectly when aiming to compete right away. Even then the PU was not reliable. No high profile recruitment on the technical side. The hiring of Laurent Rossi and then subsequently Otmar has just added layers of politics to an already bureaucratic management structure.

[everythingisawesome]

There is a lot of wrong doings in Enstone. It's hard to pin point who is exactly to blame. It's not just one person. And all new facilities, all investments and hiring over 300 people feel now like huge waste of money. I dont think even making internal changes and shuffling anymore can help situation. It's just a big f mess. I dont think anyone wants to hear that. But that an actual fact and situation in what Alpine is right now.



Renault as manufacturer completely botched their re-entry in F1 in 2016 and since then done only marginal improvements. And had nowhere near improvements or achievements since then to call this stint success. They are simply unable to build fast F1 cars anymore. My personal opinion is there is not enough talented people, designers in Enstone who know how to do it. And over years they were unable from management stand point recognize and hire people who know how to build fast cars.

At this point selling a team would be best case scenario. Because I dont see anything changes in next month, next year, next decade or even next century.

The issues start from the top. De Meo should have recruited Dan Fallows and Eric Blandin and a bunch of the people who went from Mercedes HPP to RBPT. Instead, Aston Martin took Fallows and Blandin, and RB took the Merc PU people.

Why would people like Blandin and Fallows choose a customer team rather than a works outfit like Alpine to try and push it up the grid. Before the transfers, Racing Point and Alpine were both middling teams. Why didn't they pick Alpine, a team who controls it's only engine supply and has it's own windtunnel?

There's a serious lack of ambition in every move this team continues to make, from the signing of Ocon for 4 years, to losing the Alonso-Piastri lineup, the hiring of Otmar, the inability to look attractive to very talented technical staff, and the lack of investment. Everything they've done since the beginning of the hybrid era has been "too little too late" and it ends up costing them more to do things shoddily the first time, and then have to do an overhaul of a bad design the next year. People like to make excuses about the resources of the big 3, but Aston Martin put paid to that.

Some will say Aston Martin don't make this and that and buy this and that, but the reality is you only take the hit on the investment in a gearbox and a suspension in the first year of the new regulations (As long as you were incompetent enough to build the wrong design from the outset, which is what Alpine did...). From the second year onwards you shouldn't need to spend any more money on those components beyond small refinements. Alpine shouldn't have had to "redesign" their suspension in the second year, after "redesigning it" for the first year. That's incompetence. Everything smacks of "not good enough". The trajectory of this team does not make sense. They don't have a "do anything it takes to win" attitude otherwise they would have bought out Ocon's contract in order to keep Alonso and Piastri.

Alpine/Renault realized that the marketing still works even if they aren't the best and the team makes money too. There's no motivation to seriously change that I see. Engineering isn't special. Drivers aren't special.

If they are serious, they will start a big recruitment campaign from Ferrari, Mercedes, Red Bull, Aston Martin and start looking towards the 2026 regulations.

I'll preface by saying that I expect Alpine to finish 5th at worst this season. But,
I have felt the same about their lack of ambition as you for a while. Its well known they were considering whether to stay in F1 or not before De Meo took over. So it made sense they weren't going all in in terms of investment, specially with a bureaucratic structure. But De Meo made all the right noises and switch to Alpine brand seemed like a commitment towards that direction.

Everything since then has been a bit of a headscratcher. Ocon extension was confusing. Deciding to push the new split turbo PU to 2022 was also weird. You would probably want to trial run it before the new regulations and have it running perfectly when aiming to compete right away. Even then the PU was not reliable. No high profile recruitment on the technical side. The hiring of Laurent Rossi and then subsequently Otmar has just added layers of politics to an already bureaucratic management structure.

Agree management of Alpine is poor, the reality is, they've never had stable leadership since James left, or stable funding.

However

There is no one on this entire forum that is qualified to judge the talent or competency of any of the engineers in any of the teams. Consider that engineers are acting on what managers tell them to do, and what budget allows.

[diffuser]

Well that all came crashing back down to reality unfortunately. I really thought they had a weapon this year.

All around a very poor session from Gasly, and Ocon only managed P9. This will be a dark season for Alpine. RB/Merc/Ferrari/AMR are in a league of their own. P9 and P10 will be the best they can hope for on average, with higher positions only if leading teams have incidents.

They're missing the heart.

[xReVo]

The alpine a521 was a great car that only lacked the engine and obviously the aerodynamic intervention. But they justified this fact, saying they were aiming for 2022. Well, it was a failure. 2023 will be even worse. It seems they are out of budget considering development of the A523 started in November 2021. They kicked out Budkowski who was one of the top aero engineers in F1. Bad management by De Meo

[peewon]

However

There is no one on this entire forum that is qualified to judge the talent or competency of any of the engineers in any of the teams. Consider that engineers are acting on what managers tell them to do, and what budget allows.

I think this is an important thing to point out. It always starts from management empowering the talent and backing them financially to extract the most of their abilities. Now some are just better than others. But this comparison cannot be made until they're operating from a level playing field of opportunity.

And with Alpine, there are enough signs from the management side to suggest that they are not optimizing on that front. Some of the stuff to come out of last year with the driver's contracts and Prost's acrimonious exit are just bad indicators of management. Alpine is actually pretty respectable in terms of performance but I feel like their ceiling should be much higher considering their works status.

[Enstone]

The alpine a521 was a great car that only lacked the engine and obviously the aerodynamic intervention. But they justified this fact, saying they were aiming for 2022. Well, it was a failure. 2023 will be even worse. It seems they are out of budget considering development of the A523 started in November 2021. They kicked out Budkowski who was one of the top aero engineers in F1. Bad management by De Meo

It's more Rossi than De Meo i think... the first question is why Dan Fallows or James Key won't even consider to join Alpine... even Binotto would prefer to break his arm instead of working for Enstone

They lack of innovations, they lack of a racing spirit, they lack of people from Ferrari/RBR to help them in areas who should help them to be closer the third position...

[EJ22B]

The current engineers at Alpine are reluctant to go brave and aggressive with the car design. The risk of failure is quite high and carries serious repercussions because of being a manufacturer team.

Aston Martin F1 on the other hand is fully owned by Lawrence Stroll who has given it's engineers the free reign to go aggressive with the design without any repercussions if it fails.

This mentality did led to two bad seasons in 2021 and 22 but with the hiring of top tier engineers who are confident in their abilities and have a great track record they have finally made the jump to the front of the pack.

Unfortunately, this kinda progress is not possible at a manufacturer team. Incase of a failure someone has to take accountability. Even Mercedes took small-small steps from 2010 to 13 to move forward.

[AR3-GP]

The current engineers at Alpine are reluctant to go brave and aggressive with the car design. The risk of failure is quite high and carries serious repercussions because of being a manufacturer team.

Aston Martin F1 on the other hand is fully owned by Lawrence Stroll who has given it's engineers the free reign to go aggressive with the design without any repercussions if it fails.

This mentality did led to two bad seasons in 2021 and 22 but with the hiring of top tier engineers who are confident in their abilities and have a great track record they have finally made the jump to the front of the pack.

Unfortunately, this kinda progress is not possible at a manufacturer team. Incase of a failure someone has to take accountability. Even Mercedes took small-small steps from 2010 to 13 to move forward.

I would gladly trade 2 years of "failure" for an Aston Martin trajectory for this team. As it in, Enstone will finish P9 and P10 maximum. The others are in another league.

That is already failure. They might as well now take the opportunity to go crazy with the aero and see what sticks. Nobody cares about P9 and P10. Those positions did not even score points before 2010!

[AR3-GP]

The alpine a521 was a great car that only lacked the engine and obviously the aerodynamic intervention. But they justified this fact, saying they were aiming for 2022. Well, it was a failure. 2023 will be even worse. It seems they are out of budget considering development of the A523 started in November 2021. They kicked out Budkowski who was one of the top aero engineers in F1. Bad management by De Meo

It's more Rossi than De Meo i think... the first question is why Dan Fallows or James Key won't even consider to join Alpine... even Binotto would prefer to break his arm instead of working for Enstone

Exactly! Enstone is a works team! Their own engine. Their own windtunnel. There own gearbox. Their own suspension. A technical genius like Fallows or Blandon should see Enstone like a piece of modeling clay that they can shape into the perfect F1 team and to do it with a huge brand like Renault would have them seen in the same mold as Adrian Newey, Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, James Allison etc etc. Here's the keys to the team, go win a championship.

Why did no one come?

[organic]

IMO, Rossi

Based on everything I've read/heard, the team is led in a way that will forever limit it. Without changes at the very top I don't see things changing

[KimiRai]

Considering the A523 is pretty much an evolution of last years I wouldn't find it surprising that in Jeddah it goes a bit better than Bahrain like it happened in 2022.

[yepp4]

I don't know anything about Enstone but from the outside, I agree with @diffuser you can feel that they need a soul but also leadership, Otmar seems to be a nice guy but doesn't seem to me to be very charismatic, you need some people like that to attract big talents and make people dream big. They say they want to be back at the top but not sure they are believing it themselves.
Alonso's presence outside just driving the car did probably help in that matter last year. Now, Ocon is a nice guy but is not a born leader (don't know about Gas yet), they're missing someone and some drive.

On the other hand, they did progress over the winter, just not enough and were passed by Aston which makes them look bad. If Aston did not progress as much they would probably be in the 4th spot again. Also, last year they also started the year pretty far (maybe the track layout also?) and then they managed to unlock some potential afterwards, let's see what happens next!

[organic]

Considering the A523 is pretty much an evolution of last years I wouldn't find it surprising that in Jeddah it goes a bit better than Bahrain like it happened in 2022.

Same, and the race pace at Bahrain was much better than I expected relative to qualifying. I think they sacrificed qualifying pace to take the race to Merc. Gasly ran into traffic on his first lap and simply breached track limits on second lap. And operational errors for Ocon made everything come undone... it was the perfect storm to make things seem dire when reality may be a different picture especially given Alpine develop very well in-season & the car doesn't necessarily suit Bahrain

[peewon]

Otmar is a puppet for Rossi at Alpine. He took the heat off him over the driver contract fiasco last year. The way he attacked Piastri and Alonso in the aftermath tells me hes not a nice guy in any way. Rossi started to clean house as soon as he got there. Prost singled him out as a problem on leaving and Budkowski also had the infamous picture in which he was giving the finger.