What if the breakaway happens?

[gcdugas]

First and foremost: Bernie won't let it happen. He's only interested in the money, and his revenues will be hit hard if F1 turns into another boring A1 type yawn.

The solution: Get Max's hookers back, give him something to put his grubby little mitts on, so he can leave the FIA to the racers.

Why has he let it get this far then? It is ruining the sport. Look at all the empty seats. No sponsor can know what to expect. The teams feel this and will act. Fans are being turned off in droves.

[gcdugas]

Another swipe by Luca here:

"Thinking about all these enthusiastic people and about the empty grandstands at Istanbul last week I think that there's something wrong. But today I don't want to sadden myself by talking about Formula 1," the Ferrari Chairman said.

And he goes on to refer to Max's new budget series as "Formula 3".

It is all over for Max. He is 100% toast.

I know this is a serious post and I want to keep this serious but I honestly wonder if Max's brain has been affected by syphilis. He is displaying all the classic symptoms of advanced syphilitic mental decay.

[Conceptual]

If I recall, the Cosworth engine that was submitted for homologization at Brazil 2006 was running at 21k RPM...

I just hope that Cosworth is using this time applying for the "reliability upgrades" that the other teams have done since 2006 to get some more BHP from their powerplant.

It will be great to hear these engine singing at 21k again next year!

Why? Are you planning on watching the Cosworth only 12 car grid FOM series that all the TV outlets will rebroadcast at 3:00AM? Or are you going to pay $400 for a seat in an empty bleacher?

I would only pay the $400 if I was guaranteed the VIP treatment of an empty bleacher. Actually, if they are that empty, maybe I'll upgrade to the $500 booth, so I can watch it on the plasma, and hear it volume leveled, and digitally perfect.

And, if the published 2010 "Cap regs" are what these cars are designed by, I will ABSOLUTELY be tuning in to see what would truly be a pinnacle of technology. How can anyone not be excited about AWD F1 cars with no rev/engine limit and automatically adjustable wings? These cars with the slicks have the chance of breaking every F1 track record in existance.

Isn't that what the racing is TRULY about?

If the 2010 cars put 2s/lap on 2009 cars, BRING EM ON!

[flynfrog]

If I recall, the Cosworth engine that was submitted for homologization at Brazil 2006 was running at 21k RPM...

I just hope that Cosworth is using this time applying for the "reliability upgrades" that the other teams have done since 2006 to get some more BHP from their powerplant.

It will be great to hear these engine singing at 21k again next year!

Why? Are you planning on watching the Cosworth only 12 car grid FOM series that all the TV outlets will rebroadcast at 3:00AM? Or are you going to pay $400 for a seat in an empty bleacher?

I would only pay the $400 if I was guaranteed the VIP treatment of an empty bleacher. Actually, if they are that empty, maybe I'll upgrade to the $500 booth, so I can watch it on the plasma, and hear it volume leveled, and digitally perfect.

And, if the published 2010 "Cap regs" are what these cars are designed by, I will ABSOLUTELY be tuning in to see what would truly be a pinnacle of technology. How can anyone not be excited about AWD F1 cars with no rev/engine limit and automatically adjustable wings? These cars with the slicks have the chance of breaking every F1 track record in existance.

Isn't that what the racing is TRULY about?

If the 2010 cars put 2s/lap on 2009 cars, BRING EM ON!

because with a budget cap the race winners will be deiced in a court room not on the track. MId season there will be a knee jerk reaction to slow them down

not to mention no one will have the budget to implement any thing you want to see

[Conceptual]

I would only pay the $400 if I was guaranteed the VIP treatment of an empty bleacher. Actually, if they are that empty, maybe I'll upgrade to the $500 booth, so I can watch it on the plasma, and hear it volume leveled, and digitally perfect.

And, if the published 2010 "Cap regs" are what these cars are designed by, I will ABSOLUTELY be tuning in to see what would truly be a pinnacle of technology. How can anyone not be excited about AWD F1 cars with no rev/engine limit and automatically adjustable wings? These cars with the slicks have the chance of breaking every F1 track record in existance.

Isn't that what the racing is TRULY about?

If the 2010 cars put 2s/lap on 2009 cars, BRING EM ON!

because with a budget cap the race winners will be deiced in a court room not on the track. MId season there will be a knee jerk reaction to slow them down

not to mention no one will have the budget to implement any thing you want to see

Is that what your crystal ball tells you? Care to elaborate on such fortune telling with a bit of fact?

I think that if ALL teams would have simply shut up, and got under the cap that we would have seen better cars come out of this, but if the new teams now have a binding contract with the FIA to compete in the 2010 F1 World Championship under the published 2010 Technical Regulations, the FIA may have no choice but to disqualify the FOTA teams' conditional entry, and let in the unpicked new teams take a crack at it.

For 40MEU, you can still build a killer chassis. And that is pretty much all the cap does, is limit the chassis cost.

But you overlook the fact that they can then dump 200MEU into AWD KERS and engine development.

That is OK with me!

[flynfrog]

I would only pay the $400 if I was guaranteed the VIP treatment of an empty bleacher. Actually, if they are that empty, maybe I'll upgrade to the $500 booth, so I can watch it on the plasma, and hear it volume leveled, and digitally perfect.

And, if the published 2010 "Cap regs" are what these cars are designed by, I will ABSOLUTELY be tuning in to see what would truly be a pinnacle of technology. How can anyone not be excited about AWD F1 cars with no rev/engine limit and automatically adjustable wings? These cars with the slicks have the chance of breaking every F1 track record in existance.

Isn't that what the racing is TRULY about?

If the 2010 cars put 2s/lap on 2009 cars, BRING EM ON!

because with a budget cap the race winners will be deiced in a court room not on the track. MId season there will be a knee jerk reaction to slow them down

not to mention no one will have the budget to implement any thing you want to see

Is that what your crystal ball tells you? Care to elaborate on such fortune telling with a bit of fact?

I think that if ALL teams would have simply shut up, and got under the cap that we would have seen better cars come out of this, but if the new teams now have a binding contract with the FIA to compete in the 2010 F1 World Championship under the published 2010 Technical Regulations, the FIA may have no choice but to disqualify the FOTA teams' conditional entry, and let in the unpicked new teams take a crack at it.

For 40MEU, you can still build a killer chassis. And that is pretty much all the cap does, is limit the chassis cost.

But you overlook the fact that they can then dump 200MEU into AWD KERS and engine development.

That is OK with me!

how does the 40mil cap not limit dev. on aero kers and all of the other things.

It will end up in courts because teams will simply buy technology for $1 from a shadow company that "developed" it. Some on will sue blah blah. Not to mention how do they plan to keep track of how much the teams spend. Companies rarely know how much they spend how is the FIA going to figure it out

[Conceptual]

how does the 40mil cap not limit dev. on aero kers and all of the other things.

It will end up in courts because teams will simply buy technology for $1 from a shadow company that "developed" it. Some on will sue blah blah. Not to mention how do they plan to keep track of how much the teams spend. Companies rarely know how much they spend how is the FIA going to figure it out

I think an accountant and a bank account should do rather well.

Each team needs a purchase order for every component, and the paperwork that travels from station to station during manufacturing. If the manhours are not in line what is reported, then there is a problem.

It really could be that simple.

[timbo]

Each team needs a purchase order for every component, and the paperwork that travels from station to station during manufacturing. If the manhours are not in line what is reported, then there is a problem.

It really could be that simple.

And so what? How can you deduce development cost from that? For example there may be a secret contractor advising a team what areas of research yield results and which not, or hand over concepts like DDDs or whatever.

[Richard]

there may be a secret contractor advising a team what areas of research yield results and which not, or hand over concepts like DDDs or whatever.

Doesn't need to be secret. McLaren or Ferrari could develop technology for their road cars which is then transferred to the F1 cars.

Back to the OP ...

It's a power game to get better distribution of cash and rules, despite Ferrari's strong words this weekend, I still see a compromise as the most likely option. Although as each week goes by, the price for that compromise goes up and up ...

[Steven]

I would only pay the $400 if I was guaranteed the VIP treatment of an empty bleacher. Actually, if they are that empty, maybe I'll upgrade to the $500 booth, so I can watch it on the plasma, and hear it volume leveled, and digitally perfect.

And, if the published 2010 "Cap regs" are what these cars are designed by, I will ABSOLUTELY be tuning in to see what would truly be a pinnacle of technology. How can anyone not be excited about AWD F1 cars with no rev/engine limit and automatically adjustable wings? These cars with the slicks have the chance of breaking every F1 track record in existance.

Isn't that what the racing is TRULY about?

If the 2010 cars put 2s/lap on 2009 cars, BRING EM ON!

because with a budget cap the race winners will be deiced in a court room not on the track. MId season there will be a knee jerk reaction to slow them down

not to mention no one will have the budget to implement any thing you want to see

Is that what your crystal ball tells you? Care to elaborate on such fortune telling with a bit of fact?

So it appears to be, there's nothing wrong with that I think Even more so, I agree that opening the rules drastically while leaving the cap in place will result in some team dominating the series, something that neither the spectators nor the organisers would be happy with. As a result some measures will be taken again, and we end up with the same situation as with all technical novelties in F1 since its inauguration.

Interestingly, I had a talk with a few people who are just watching F1 as entertainment, they are not at all into the technical stuff, only "the cars are awesome". All of them disliked F1 in its current state and would like to see it go back to pure racing rather than all the stuff surrounding it. Even more important was the fact that they disliked Brawn to top the season so far, argumenting "Barrichello was the loser for years, and now he's up there easily". Having this in mind, spectators who are now on the edge of dropping out, I think are unlikely to follow anything next year if we'd have two series rather than a single one.

Basically, I'm all for a single series, but if it doesn't work out, I will hold Mad Max responsible for it all. I think he quickly needs to step away from his single-ruler idea quickly before it's too late. Bernie in my belief is only defending his own commercial interests. I'd even go as far as saying that if the breakaway would work in 2010 and the teams would want him, he would jump ship (although I have a slight suspicion that none of the works teams will want him there).

[Giblet]

Bernie's seems to have smoothed out since the whole CVC ownership fiasco.

He tells it like it is a lot more then he used to, and has let a lot of cats out of numerous bags in the last 12 months.

[flynfrog]

how does the 40mil cap not limit dev. on aero kers and all of the other things.

It will end up in courts because teams will simply buy technology for $1 from a shadow company that "developed" it. Some on will sue blah blah. Not to mention how do they plan to keep track of how much the teams spend. Companies rarely know how much they spend how is the FIA going to figure it out

I think an accountant and a bank account should do rather well.

Each team needs a purchase order for every component, and the paperwork that travels from station to station during manufacturing. If the manhours are not in line what is reported, then there is a problem.

It really could be that simple.

not really say I setup a separate company they pursue 10 different ways to build something costing 100 million dollars. I buy the one that works for 10 million what exactly is the budget capping helping now?

Its the same way with redbull technoliges building the chassis for redbull and toro roso.

out wet dream of loose rules comes with unworkable terms.

[paused]

not really say I setup a separate company they pursue 10 different ways to build something costing 100 million dollars. I buy the one that works for 10 million what exactly is the budget capping helping now?

Its the same way with redbull technoliges building the chassis for redbull and toro roso.

out wet dream of loose rules comes with unworkable terms.

Yes I would 100% agree. I think this is the real reason that the manufacturers in particular are so against the idea of a cost cap. To put it plainly they paranoid that the other manufacturers would cheat and vice versa.

As we all know modern day car companies are actually made up by complex company structures and internal divisions specialising in one thing or another. In most cases their sporting depatments are also segregated and broken up again into different structures.

I find it hard to beleive that entry into the F1 World Champsion would give the FIA any regulatoory power to investigate that operations and financial of the larger parent company as a whole. There for the exists the at least "perceived" risk that one manufacturer can do road car research that could end up benefiting their sporting team.

As most people on this board probably understand the way F1 develops is mostly through open design phase, selecting best of class solutions and then doing multiple iterations to find performance gains.

Now under the proposed budget cap, we all know the ability of the teams to produce multiple solutions and iterations are heavilly curtailed. Therefore the benefit doesn't come from a direct technolgy transference but rather from the ability of team not to persue dead ends and waste resources which could otherwise be spent on other vetted solutions.

[timbo]

Yes I would 100% agree. I think this is the real reason that the manufacturers in particular are so against the idea of a cost cap. To put it plainly they paranoid that the other manufacturers would cheat and vice versa.

It used to be "garagiste's" who cheated back then. Anyway, noone can be immune to this.

I find it hard to beleive that entry into the F1 World Champsion would give the FIA any regulatoory power to investigate that operations and financial of the larger parent company as a whole.

Agreed, but that applies on all levels. And knowing how FIA deals with things it is obvious that controlling the cap would lead to a new wave of fancy scandals every year.

[Conceptual]

Yes I would 100% agree. I think this is the real reason that the manufacturers in particular are so against the idea of a cost cap. To put it plainly they paranoid that the other manufacturers would cheat and vice versa.

It used to be "garagiste's" who cheated back then. Anyway, noone can be immune to this.

I find it hard to beleive that entry into the F1 World Champsion would give the FIA any regulatoory power to investigate that operations and financial of the larger parent company as a whole.

Agreed, but that applies on all levels. And knowing how FIA deals with things it is obvious that controlling the cap would lead to a new wave of fancy scandals every year.

This is why I suggested the F2 catergory in another post.

If the teams "buy" parts from outside that are well refined, they need to put a price on it. And to keep the honest price, it would need to be for sale in F2 for the same price. Let the companies have multiple development houses. As long as the technology is for sale, competitors could buy it. Obviously teams couldn't just bolt stuff on, but just buying it for the understanding would save the other teams incredible amounts of manhours.

And it wouldn't lead to a spec series either. All teams incorporated the DDD, and none are identical. Share the knowledge of development, but everyone skins his own cat.