What if the breakaway happens?

[gcdugas]

Share the knowledge of development, but everyone skins his own cat.

Everyone does skin their own cat.... its called the WCC. No Marxist egalitarianism. Just healthy competition. The cost a team invests is directly proportional to the value they place on the F1 crown and/or the expected return on useful technological development. Any technology that is shared is to be voluntary, like using a third party for brakes, tires etc.

Costs will come way down if the series is dumbed down and it loses its prestige. No manufacturer will want to bother. They will necessarily go elsewhere to showcase their wares. There has to be something proprietary and exclusive about their individual designs or why bother.

[xpensive]

=D>

[Miguel]

Costs will come way down if the series is dumbed down and it loses its prestige. No manufacturer will want to bother. They will necessarily go elsewhere to showcase their wares. There has to be something proprietary and exclusive about their individual designs or why bother.

Yes, but you don't have to be in the middle of a bloody arms race in order to have development.

[Conceptual]

I don't think that establishing a market cost for parts, and a sales outlet for the parts would make F1 lose its prestiege.

Now it may no longer be in line with YOUR view of what F1 should be, but I find that shared development and innovation through sales channels would become lucrative for all involved. Remember, if one team makes a killer part (DDD) and sells that part to all of its competitors, the work done to incorporate it and refine it would then be available for the originating team to buy as well.

I guess when it comes to this stuff, I should stop concerning myself with trying to identify cost inflating issues and building solutions, and just worry about making you happy.

Then maybe I can avoid all of these snide remarks, and contrariness.

[kilcoo316]

I think an accountant and a bank account should do rather well.

Each team needs a purchase order for every component, and the paperwork that travels from station to station during manufacturing. If the manhours are not in line what is reported, then there is a problem.

It really could be that simple.

Manufacturing is not the cost behind F1 cars.
How many of the engineers in any F1 team actually manufacture components?

A hypothetical argument - how will the FIA accumulate computational hours (for CFD or FEA)?
Because they certainly cost a sh!tload of money (not as much as a windtunnel, but not cheap!)

Once again, its a lawyer (Max) trying to argue with engineers (the teams) on their ground. Who do you think knows what they are talking about more?

The teams would find more gaps and holes to hide development money in than any of us could possibly imagine.

Everyone remember all the crap there was flying around regarding some teams having traction control pre-2001? That is nothing compared to the arguments there would be over teams breaking budgets.

If they can hide TC algorithms in a small ECU, imagine what they can hide in a years accounts of their parent companies?

[gcdugas]

Yes, but you don't have to be in the middle of a bloody arms race in order to have development.

Then you can sit on the side lines with all the women and children while the men do battle.



Bloody.... arms race.... the perfect description of what F1 should be.

[gcdugas]

Max the shifty liar says:

'The FIA understands that Porsche did not support ACEA's Formula One resolution and has instructed the ACEA secretariat to make this clear in response to any press enquiries. The FIA would be happy to meet ACEA's representatives at any time in order to discuss the FIA's policies and to develop where possible a common set of objectives.'

Well, well, well, what have we here? Its the old "divide and conquer" strategy. Too bad it isn't playing this time Max. Porsche seems to have no problem with the ACEA statement or they would have voiced their own objections without the FIA putting words into their mouth.

But, to give Max fair and equitable treatment, from now on I will refer to him as "Mosley who enjoys the support of less than 20% of the FIA's constituency" which reflects the weighted membership rolls of the clubs that supported him during BDSMgate, no American support, no German support, no Japanese support, no Dutch support, no Spanish support etc.

For example, if Max made the following statements, this is how I would cite them:

"I hate John Howett and Luca di Montezemolo. I want all the power." said Max Mosley who enjoys the support of less than 20% of the FIA's constituency.

And...

Mosley who enjoys the support of less than 20% of the FIA's constituency said: "I love getting my arse whipped by a German speaking dominatrix in a dungeon".

[Conceptual]

I think an accountant and a bank account should do rather well.

Each team needs a purchase order for every component, and the paperwork that travels from station to station during manufacturing. If the manhours are not in line what is reported, then there is a problem.

It really could be that simple.

Manufacturing is not the cost behind F1 cars.

How many of the engineers in any F1 team actually manufacture components?


A hypothetical argument - how will the FIA accumulate computational hours (for CFD or FEA)?

Because they certainly cost a sh!tload of money (not as much as a windtunnel, but not cheap!)


Once again, its a lawyer (Max) trying to argue with engineers (the teams) on their ground. Who do you think knows what they are talking about more?

The teams would find more gaps and holes to hide development money in than any of us could possibly imagine.


Everyone remember all the crap there was flying around regarding some teams having traction control pre-2001? That is nothing compared to the arguments there would be over teams breaking budgets.

If they can hide TC algorithms in a small ECU, imagine what they can hide in a years accounts of their parent companies?

When you are able to fully wrap your mind around what I said, you will find how you are simply proving my point even more.

The cost is not in manufacturing, but in optimization. Hiding this or that becomes impossible, or downright unnecessary. Establishing a market cost for the components of an F1 car, and selling said parts is the simplest way to control costs.

If team A spends 400 Bazillion dollars developing component X, and then tries to sell it, they will need to do a gross margin calculation for the actual cost of the item, as well as the sale price.

If the teams had to make every component they make for their cars a sold item, there would be great reluctance to hide that 400 Bazillion dollars of investment when the tech will be sold for 10 thousand dollars.

What it would do is use the nature of business to self-police the budget cap. Spending huge amounts of hidden money on these things will not be desirable, since others would be able to copy it much quicker.

And about the CFD costing alot...

The FOTA teams already own the supercomputers that do their CFD. The only expense of running simulations is electricity, and manhours. Unless the machines are leased, there is no recurring costs involved. And since you can now build a 20 Tera Flop rack for $30,000 USD, the days of the $55M supercomputers are at an end.

If anything, I would say to cap the windtunnel time, but uncork the CFD. You don't have to pay computers to crunch numbers like you do for engineers...

[gcdugas]

Can't you all see just how divisive a budget cap is? Anyone at any time can be accused of cheating. What team is going to let the FIA look at their books?

And the cap is not really the issue. The adversarial, autocratic and non-transparent governance is. And then there is the issue of Bernie's sticky fingers and the way he selects tracks in areas where local gov'ts pay high fees but there is little public interest in racing. The teams are happy to share power. Presently they have ZERO and are sick of being subject to Max's whim. He just ignores everything they say and does as he pleases. And Max can't even provide sane stewards and honest appeals courts that are above reproach. Why couldn't the DDD be ruled on six weeks before the season when the issue first arose? Why decide after two races have been run? Why must Max make a problem grow before he addresses it?

[Conceptual]

Can't you all see just how divisive a budget cap is? Anyone at any time can be accused of cheating. What team is going to let the FIA look at their books?

And the cap is not really the issue. The adversarial, autocratic and non-transparent governance is. And then there is the issue of Bernie's sticky fingers and the way he selects tracks in areas where local gov'ts pay high fees but there is little public interest in racing. The teams are happy to share power. Presently they have ZERO and are sick of being subject to Max's whim. He just ignores everything they say and does as he pleases. And Max can't even provide sane stewards and honest appeals courts that are above reproach. Why couldn't the DDD be ruled on six weeks before the season when the issue first arose? Why decide after two races have been run? Why must Max make a problem grow before he addresses it?

Hero complex?

[Ciro Pabón]

Please, tone down a bit.

It is me or there are too many opinions, few quotes and few historic examples in this thread? It can easily become a battle of opinions about what to do, if it hasn't already.

It is already scientifically established that FIA proposes a budget cap and some teams disagree. It seems we have enough rants in this thread against/for that cap.

However, if you wish to contribute more to the fine art of ranting, this thread seems ideal...

Now, personal attacks on public figures are entertaining up to a point.

BUT the point of the thread is what happens if there is a breakaway, not who is the evil conspirator with a wretched soul that will get it its way.

We all know the personal opinions of some members about Mosley, Domenicali, etc.

The fourth time we read about them we might find them less amusing.

Besides, if you wish, you can start an "I hate XXX" thread: this way I don't have to watch every thread for the same well trodden themes.

Isn't more interesting to speculate about a breakaway?

Name, president, tracks, teams? Which one, where?

TV audience figures anyone? Isn't Formula One TV rating going down? Does anybody knows how much?

Finally, this thread has become so sour that some members have been warned and banned because of this very same issue.

Anyone would think that, as Rousseau said, this would have served to "encourager les outres".

[jddh1]

I've said it before and I'm gonna say it again. If they break, I'll watch them where ever they go.

I just hope they don't show races on Pay/View TV. That would suck.

[andartop]

If the breakaway happens...
Will F1technical be renamed as Whatever-the-new-series-is-called-technical?
Will it stick to the official F1, follow the "rebels" or cover both series?

[kilcoo316]

When you are able to fully wrap your mind around what I said, you will find how you are simply proving my point even more.

Not even close to proving your point even more. Its diametrically opposed to your point of it being easy.

The cost is not in manufacturing, but in optimization. Hiding this or that becomes impossible, or downright unnecessary.

Right, so if FIAT decide to run a research project on optimisation algorithms which can then be used by Ferrari, cutting down their man hours spent per development step - how does that fit into the budget cap?

Establishing a market cost for the components of an F1 car, and selling said parts is the simplest way to control costs.

So you want a spec series?

Why not watch GP2 then?

If team A spends 400 Bazillion dollars developing component X, and then tries to sell it,

Why would they ever want to sell it?

they will need to do a gross margin calculation for the actual cost of the item, as well as the sale price.

You are talking about the transfer of IP, not merely lumps of ti or CF.

If the teams had to make every component they make for their cars a sold item, there would be great reluctance to hide that 400 Bazillion dollars of investment when the tech will be sold for 10 thousand dollars.

This from the man that harped on at great length about synergies earlier this season...

where did all that bull go?

Regardless, it is not the work of a minute to get (for example) ferrari suspension arms and uprights working on a mclaren tub... the different geometries, related to the different pick-up points will see to that.

What it would do is use the nature of business to self-police the budget cap. Spending huge amounts of hidden money on these things will not be desirable, since others would be able to copy it much quicker.

No. They really wouldn't be able to copy it without a complete read of the data used to generate the design.

The FOTA teams already own the supercomputers that do their CFD. The only expense of running simulations is electricity, and manhours.

& Maintenance
& HW Upgrades

However, you dismiss manhours as inconsequential.

What is to stop Ferrari offloading the meshing of geometries to people within FIAT? The FIA would be none the wiser unless they can follow the data trail (impossible) for each and every design iteration.

A needle in 100,000 haystacks.

Unless the machines are leased, there is no recurring costs involved. And since you can now build a 20 Tera Flop rack for $30,000 USD, the days of the $55M supercomputers are at an end.

A 20 TF rack fit for CFD for $30,000 USD?



The switch you'll need will almost cost that.

[Steven]

If the breakaway happens...
Will F1technical be renamed as Whatever-the-new-series-is-called-technical?
Will it stick to the official F1, follow the "rebels" or cover both series?

To be honest I haven't thought about it yet. We'll see what happens with the series first, then we can see what to do with this site. In any case, we're not closing, no worries