2023 car comparison thread

[Vanja #66]

RB DRS flaps have been very steep on every wing last year, which continues now obviously. Ferrari wing raced by Sainz in Canada 2022 and also in Bahrain this year had a shallower, but bigger flap. The result is not as much drag with DRS closed, but slightly less speed difference with DRS open. Only those two teams know the exact downforce levels of course

[AR3-GP]

RB DRS flaps have been very steep on every wing last year, which continues now obviously. Ferrari wing raced by Sainz in Canada 2022 and also in Bahrain this year had a shallower, but bigger flap. The result is not as much drag with DRS closed, but slightly less speed difference with DRS open. Only those two teams know the exact downforce levels of course

What I don't get is why other teams haven't adapted something which on the surface seems like low hanging fruit?

More DF for the corners, and then DRS if you need to overtake.

[Vanja #66]

What I don't get is why other teams haven't adapted something which on the surface seems like low hanging fruit?

More DF for the corners, and then DRS if you need to overtake.

To defend from overtakes with less drag? Maybe...

[AR3-GP]

What I don't get is why other teams haven't adapted something which on the surface seems like low hanging fruit?

More DF for the corners, and then DRS if you need to overtake.

To defend from overtakes with less drag? Maybe...

It doesn't seem to bother Red Bull.

[Hoffman900]

Very very rough back of napkin calculations, but this is what I’m getting.

So looking at trap speeds.

Assuming: CD 0.98, front area 1 1.3313 sq meters, 1404kg (car weight plus aero load, I doubled it). (2016 values, so again, this is meant to he more illustrative than anything)

RB: 337.8kmh = 880hp consumed
Merc: 330kmh = 825hp consumed.

If Merc and Honda are the same peak power, it would take a Cd for the same horsepower and frontal area of 0.915 for the same power consumed.

I really don’t suspect Honda has that much more power advantage, definitely not 55hp peak and you can see the traces are similar but start diverging the faster they go.

If you took the velocity graphs and took the derivative to get acceleration, it would be more revealing.

(Yes I know those speeds were done with DRS open, but again, meant to be more illustrative than anything).

[Vanja #66]

It doesn't seem to bother Red Bull.

The Power of Dreams

[Sevach]

[F1Krof]

Part 2.

[vorticism]

re: discussions from other threads. The simplest explanation may be that Ferrari and Merc are barking up the wrong tree with their concepts. The differences between these cars are staring us in the face; Occam's razor. Much discussion about front and rear wings however this is seemingly a floor and sidepod formula.

More generally I think we are seeing a replay of 2009. RB showed up with a car that by 2014 or so all teams would have essentially copied. The question is, how long until the field looks like a RB.

In 2009 -10 they established the standard bodywork for that '09'-'21 era. Cannon exit, pullrod rear, EBD (everyone implemented it), internal airflow focus, overall attention to detail. This precident of defining elements is being seen again. This formula it will be: pushrod rear, pullrod front, oversized sidepods, and RB type floor.

They did not have a double diffuser at the start of 2009, and still came in a close second that year. Perhaps Merc thought mid-wing was going to be the DDF of this new era.

[ringo]

I noticed something about the floors of the RB18 and the W13 last year.
The venturi under the RB18 floor has it's narrow area further downstream. I do not know if this was addressed with W14.
Also redbull have more generous volume under the floor because the venturi is gentler.
As the venturi ends, the diffuser starts. So very aggressive expansion at the rear diffuser relative to the front of the floor.
On the other hand Mercedes with their first floor iteration of the ground effect rules, have a more symetrical floor front to rear, but this may be where it loses out. Lower, more restrictive underfloor volume and the centre of pressure is more forward. There is more of a delay downstream of the lowest point of the venturi before the rear diffuser.

Additionally, the expansion between front center vane and centre floor wall under the RB18 also have more volume, and has a less tight expansion rate compared to W13. Note the blue line and arrows. W13 vanes are closer together and expansion rate is "tighter" as you downstream.
RBR could also be create a little nozzle jet stream with the two converging outer vanes to influence the flow at the edge of the floor downstream.


But yes, the main and fundamental difference is the tunnel volume and the venacontracta of the floor. Redbull delays the venacontracta further downstream, then rapidly expands again into the rear diffuser.

W14 is more balance, but this results in a less volume under the car upstream the venacontra point, and can explain why it is more sensitive to ride. The RB has a better buffer due to its distribution of underfloor volume. It prioritizes the intake volume expansion over the rear, which is the outlet volumetric expansion. As to why this is done, I do not know. I am just pointing out my observations.

There are also mini diffusers between two planes of the floor "T", ie plank plane and tunnel roof. Indicating that the reference plane is playing some role in the ground effect as well for RBR.

In conclusion mercedes could investigate this if they haven't already. It makes more sense to me why RBR has the floor cut out where it is. The upper outwash and the rear biased venacontracta are linked.

[JordanMugen]

we(f1 fans) tried to run away from mass-aero-dependant cars as much as we can, like transitioning from 2008 to 2009 cars, 2018-2019-2020 cars which lacked front wing deflector-stuff, rear floor stuff that were in front of the tires etc. (some terms I don't know exactly) and when overtaking working group came up with the latest car design(f1 basic 2022 car) I thought now we can see nearly-equal cars because the engines are now nearly equal, we have less aero dependant car,more of a ground effect car that can be done by every team but we failed again.like 2010-2013 era where redbull excelled at aero designing-perfecting the car, they did it again in 2022 and 2023. the car seals the side of the rear tires again, they have a very balanced car front to rear, and like they did it back in 2010-2013 years where they had some kind of tunnels in front of the rear tire, they did it again with this year's car.(check the aero-wiz from the screenshot) they don't even need to use second beam wing in Jeddah because they have so much good rear downforce on that car.

W13 and W14 in my opinion lacked these aero features, Merc just tried zero-sidepod concept because they thought that ultra low drag car would benefit them but they are wrong again this year. AMR fixed this by applying RBR like aero to their car and look where they are.
(you can also watch Shub's video about this)

(p.s: excuse my English if I may be misunderstood)

That's very interesting, especially the flow vis from outside to underneath.

Though I guess that is how that diffuser notch works on every car.

[Andi76]

[Andi76]

we(f1 fans) tried to run away from mass-aero-dependant cars as much as we can, like transitioning from 2008 to 2009 cars, 2018-2019-2020 cars which lacked front wing deflector-stuff, rear floor stuff that were in front of the tires etc. (some terms I don't know exactly) and when overtaking working group came up with the latest car design(f1 basic 2022 car) I thought now we can see nearly-equal cars because the engines are now nearly equal, we have less aero dependant car,more of a ground effect car that can be done by every team but we failed again.like 2010-2013 era where redbull excelled at aero designing-perfecting the car, they did it again in 2022 and 2023. the car seals the side of the rear tires again, they have a very balanced car front to rear, and like they did it back in 2010-2013 years where they had some kind of tunnels in front of the rear tire, they did it again with this year's car.(check the aero-wiz from the screenshot) they don't even need to use second beam wing in Jeddah because they have so much good rear downforce on that car.
https://i.imgur.com/ikXBpzN.png
W13 and W14 in my opinion lacked these aero features, Merc just tried zero-sidepod concept because they thought that ultra low drag car would benefit them but they are wrong again this year. AMR fixed this by applying RBR like aero to their car and look where they are.
(you can also watch Shub's video about this)

(p.s: excuse my English if I may be misunderstood)

That's very interesting, especially the flow vis from outside to underneath.

Though I guess that is how that diffuser notch works on every car.

The reason they didn't use a second beamwing is probably because, and here I agree with Gary Anderson, that stalling the diffuser(Anderson: "When the DRS is open, the turning moment on the airflow from this component is reduced and therefore the beam wing stalls as a result. That will, in turn, stall the rear of the underfloor.") becomes even more beneficial.

[vorticism]

That's very interesting, especially the flow vis from outside to underneath.

Though I guess that is how that diffuser notch works on every car.

There's flow vis also present in the center. What we see here isn't necessarily blown in through the mouse-hole/slot/notch, it might have been sprayed under there.

[Vanja #66]

The reason they didn't use a second beamwing is probably because, and here I agree with Gary Anderson, that stalling the diffuser(Anderson: "When the DRS is open, the turning moment on the airflow from this component is reduced and therefore the beam wing stalls as a result. That will, in turn, stall the rear of the underfloor.") becomes even more beneficial.

It's very hard to stall a diffuser that's fed so much air already and basically impossible to stall the beam wing. The diffuser doesn't stall mid corner obviously, so no reason for it to stall on straight. Beam wing is fed by air coming on top of diffuser, one or two elements determines the added suction benefit for downforce. The rear wing in Jeddah was very shallow, so it had very little impact on beam wing when closed. Let's not forget, Ferrari in Q wasn't so much slower on any straight (-2kmh) other than back straight (-6kmh) with a decently bigger rear wing and it's very likely their ERS is lacking compared to Honda.

There's no trick on RB, it's a low drag chassis and was equipped with low drag rear wing. Gary A likes to write stuff up, maybe to stay relevant...