What if the breakaway happens?

[gcdugas]

If the breakaway happens...
Will F1technical be renamed as Whatever-the-new-series-is-called-technical?
Will it stick to the official F1, follow the "rebels" or cover both series?

I think GPWC is going to be the new series... now that sounds faintly familiar....

[tk421]

If the breakaway happens...
Will F1technical be renamed as Whatever-the-new-series-is-called-technical?

I think GPWC is going to be the new series

what about grand prix racing (GPR)? does bernie have the copyright on that? i think he owns the gp1 naming rights...

[Conceptual]

When you are able to fully wrap your mind around what I said, you will find how you are simply proving my point even more.

Not even close to proving your point even more. Its diametrically opposed to your point of it being easy.

Actually, you are. You simply still dont understand, and your reply here proves it.

The cost is not in manufacturing, but in optimization. Hiding this or that becomes impossible, or downright unnecessary.

Right, so if FIAT decide to run a research project on optimisation algorithms which can then be used by Ferrari, cutting down their man hours spent per development step - how does that fit into the budget cap?

Great, especially if it is done by a sponsor. I think FIAT as an entire company would benefit from those algorithms, especially the F1 team!

Establishing a market cost for the components of an F1 car, and selling said parts is the simplest way to control costs.

So you want a spec series?

Why not watch GP2 then?

No, once again you missed the part where I said "I do not want a spec series." I said that maybe they should move the 2010 F1 regs to F2 for 2010, and let FOTA make money selling cheaper, more versatile, highest quality chassis parts in the world, but providing a "fast-path" for these same items into F1. And extend the 2009 regs till 2012. Then there was the whole idea for "kit cars"...

So nope, not spec, just cheaper ways to get better technology.

If team A spends 400 Bazillion dollars developing component X, and then tries to sell it,

Why would they ever want to sell it?

Profit? Prestige? Collectors? And to see how far a competitor can refine it, and bounce it back to you with the experience and resources of another world class team... Sometimes you need to pass the ball to see what someone else can do with it.

I really wish you could see where this one leads...

they will need to do a gross margin calculation for the actual cost of the item, as well as the sale price.

You are talking about the transfer of IP, not merely lumps of ti or CF.

Sure! Because no matter what they do WITH that IP, the original owner can get it back including any improvements! Bet ya that would save a few manhours in the course of 3 years...

If the teams had to make every component they make for their cars a sold item, there would be great reluctance to hide that 400 Bazillion dollars of investment when the tech will be sold for 10 thousand dollars.

This from the man that harped on at great length about synergies earlier this season...

where did all that bull go?

Regardless, it is not the work of a minute to get (for example) ferrari suspension arms and uprights working on a mclaren tub... the different geometries, related to the different pick-up points will see to that.

Who said to do any of that? It is more about identifying and integrating philosophies and techniques. I never said anything other than maybe universal mounting planes. Still some play, but pretty easy to obtain. YOu know, synergy.

What it would do is use the nature of business to self-police the budget cap. Spending huge amounts of hidden money on these things will not be desirable, since others would be able to copy it much quicker.

No. They really wouldn't be able to copy it without a complete read of the data used to generate the design.

Still arguing? Read: buying the part comes with the data. That is exactly the point. How else are they gonna track progress? How much of the current budget and manhours are wasted on reverse engineering? Wouldn't it save to simply get rid of that?

The FOTA teams already own the supercomputers that do their CFD. The only expense of running simulations is electricity, and manhours.

& Maintenance
& HW Upgrades

However, you dismiss manhours as inconsequential.

What is to stop Ferrari offloading the meshing of geometries to people within FIAT? The FIA would be none the wiser unless they can follow the data trail (impossible) for each and every design iteration.

A needle in 100,000 haystacks.

I did not dismiss manhours and maintenance is manhours by the way... Actually, I gave them more account in this post than you did.

Please, if the computer at FIAT was bought and paid for, PLEASE USE IT! The only thing worse than ruining potential is wasting it.

Why not just network them ALL and have a group think...?

And hardware is obviously a big deal, but what they have is plenty, and I'm sure for 55M there is a good warranty in place!

Unless the machines are leased, there is no recurring costs involved. And since you can now build a 20 Tera Flop rack for $30,000 USD, the days of the $55M supercomputers are at an end.

A 20 TF rack fit for CFD for $30,000 USD?



The switch you'll need will almost cost that.

If I prove it, will you finally shut the hell up about it? Google "FASTRA" and think 790FX, Quad Crossfire, four ATI 4870x2's (with their 6,400 128-bit paralell processors). And once you look at the price, you realize 10 of them is actually under 30k. It is the software that hasn't been GPU accelerated yet, not the cheap, consumer hardware to do the work. Goto http://www.AMD.com for more details...

[flynfrog]

When you are able to fully wrap your mind around what I said, you will find how you are simply proving my point even more.

Not even close to proving your point even more. Its diametrically opposed to your point of it being easy.

Actually, you are. You simply still dont understand, and your reply here proves it.

The cost is not in manufacturing, but in optimization. Hiding this or that becomes impossible, or downright unnecessary.

Right, so if FIAT decide to run a research project on optimisation algorithms which can then be used by Ferrari, cutting down their man hours spent per development step - how does that fit into the budget cap?

Great, especially if it is done by a sponsor. I think FIAT as an entire company would benefit from those algorithms, especially the F1 team!

Establishing a market cost for the components of an F1 car, and selling said parts is the simplest way to control costs.

So you want a spec series?

Why not watch GP2 then?

No, once again you missed the part where I said "I do not want a spec series." I said that maybe they should move the 2010 F1 regs to F2 for 2010, and let FOTA make money selling cheaper, more versatile, highest quality chassis parts in the world, but providing a "fast-path" for these same items into F1. And extend the 2009 regs till 2012. Then there was the whole idea for "kit cars"...

So nope, not spec, just cheaper ways to get better technology.

If team A spends 400 Bazillion dollars developing component X, and then tries to sell it,

Why would they ever want to sell it?

Profit? Prestige? Collectors? And to see how far a competitor can refine it, and bounce it back to you with the experience and resources of another world class team... Sometimes you need to pass the ball to see what someone else can do with it.

I really wish you could see where this one leads...

they will need to do a gross margin calculation for the actual cost of the item, as well as the sale price.

You are talking about the transfer of IP, not merely lumps of ti or CF.

Sure! Because no matter what they do WITH that IP, the original owner can get it back including any improvements! Bet ya that would save a few manhours in the course of 3 years...

If the teams had to make every component they make for their cars a sold item, there would be great reluctance to hide that 400 Bazillion dollars of investment when the tech will be sold for 10 thousand dollars.

This from the man that harped on at great length about synergies earlier this season...

where did all that bull go?

Regardless, it is not the work of a minute to get (for example) ferrari suspension arms and uprights working on a mclaren tub... the different geometries, related to the different pick-up points will see to that.

Who said to do any of that? It is more about identifying and integrating philosophies and techniques. I never said anything other than maybe universal mounting planes. Still some play, but pretty easy to obtain. YOu know, synergy.

What it would do is use the nature of business to self-police the budget cap. Spending huge amounts of hidden money on these things will not be desirable, since others would be able to copy it much quicker.

No. They really wouldn't be able to copy it without a complete read of the data used to generate the design.

Still arguing? Read: buying the part comes with the data. That is exactly the point. How else are they gonna track progress? How much of the current budget and manhours are wasted on reverse engineering? Wouldn't it save to simply get rid of that?

The FOTA teams already own the supercomputers that do their CFD. The only expense of running simulations is electricity, and manhours.

& Maintenance
& HW Upgrades

However, you dismiss manhours as inconsequential.

What is to stop Ferrari offloading the meshing of geometries to people within FIAT? The FIA would be none the wiser unless they can follow the data trail (impossible) for each and every design iteration.

A needle in 100,000 haystacks.

I did not dismiss manhours and maintenance is manhours by the way... Actually, I gave them more account in this post than you did.

Please, if the computer at FIAT was bought and paid for, PLEASE USE IT! The only thing worse than ruining potential is wasting it.

Why not just network them ALL and have a group think...?

And hardware is obviously a big deal, but what they have is plenty, and I'm sure for 55M there is a good warranty in place!

Unless the machines are leased, there is no recurring costs involved. And since you can now build a 20 Tera Flop rack for $30,000 USD, the days of the $55M supercomputers are at an end.

A 20 TF rack fit for CFD for $30,000 USD?



The switch you'll need will almost cost that.

If I prove it, will you finally shut the hell up about it? Google "FASTRA" and think 790FX, Quad Crossfire, four ATI 4870x2's (with their 6,400 128-bit paralell processors). And once you look at the price, you realize 10 of them is actually under 30k. It is the software that hasn't been GPU accelerated yet, not the cheap, consumer hardware to do the work. Goto http://www.AMD.com for more details...

Your entire argument is based off of the false logic that the teams will gain something by giving up there work. It is worth at least double what it cost them to not have another team have that info. If they can force the other team to put in the same they did they are 100 times better off than selling it.

[kilcoo316]

Great, especially if it is done by a sponsor. I think FIAT as an entire company would benefit from those algorithms, especially the F1 team!

So your supporting the circumventing of the cost cap regulations?

What do you want?

No, once again you missed the part where I said "I do not want a spec series." I said that maybe they should move the 2010 F1 regs to F2 for 2010, and let FOTA make money selling cheaper, more versatile, highest quality chassis parts in the world, but providing a "fast-path" for these same items into F1. And extend the 2009 regs till 2012. Then there was the whole idea for "kit cars"...

So nope, not spec, just cheaper ways to get better technology.

Basically your argument is that teams should build and run their cars for $20 m per year because an F2 team won't pay much more for the components.

Totally ignoring the fact that the teams are happy to burn through $400 m a year without any prospect of customers buying parts!

Profit? Prestige? Collectors?

Or surrendering of IP... yeah, good idea... NOT!

And to see how far a competitor can refine it, and bounce it back to you with the experience and resources of another world class team... Sometimes you need to pass the ball to see what someone else can do with it.

Why on earth would Ferrari sell something to McLaren so they can use it to beat them in the next race?

What world are you living in?!?!

It is the total antithesis of competition in motorsports!!!

Sure! Because no matter what they do WITH that IP, the original owner can get it back including any improvements! Bet ya that would save a few manhours in the course of 3 years...

So the guy that developed the part that worked 2% better than the competition loses that advantage, maybe even drops behind the competition, then gets the opportunity to buy himself back to parity.

Seriously???

Who said to do any of that? It is more about identifying and integrating philosophies and techniques.

Not if your selling standard parts its not.


You did at least one year of an engineering degree right? Surely you've some basic grasp of this!

I never said anything other than maybe universal mounting planes. Still some play, but pretty easy to obtain. YOu know, synergy.

Different c.g's and a.c's will dictate different geoemtries for suspension.

Still arguing? Read: buying the part comes with the data.

Why not just copy the soviet aerospace model then?

Central research institute(s) and seperate design bureaus like Mikoyan, Sukhoi, Tupolev and Yakovlev... all running off the same data.

Please, if the computer at FIAT was bought and paid for, PLEASE USE IT! The only thing worse than ruining potential is wasting it.

Man hours. Man hours making mesh.

Why not just network them ALL and have a group think...?

Ay ay ay....

This lack of knowledge is why your later GP-GPU comments are laughable.

Tell me, why are Intel Clovertown CPUs shite for CFD? Wouldn't be anything to do with memory bandwidth problems would it?

Good luck communicating between many centralised nodes at different locations and not having serious bandwidth and latency issues.

If I prove it, will you finally shut the hell up about it?

You are only proving a total lack of knowledge right now.

I've been using cluster computers for CFD for the past 5 years.

Google "FASTRA" and think 790FX, Quad Crossfire, four ATI 4870x2's (with their 6,400 128-bit paralell processors). And once you look at the price, you realize 10 of them is actually under 30k. It is the software that hasn't been GPU accelerated yet, not the cheap, consumer hardware to do the work. Goto http://www.AMD.com for more details...

What can I say... a little knowledge is a very bad thing. If you had much understanding of the subject area, you'd be embarassed at that post.

You cannot fully utilise those GPUs (ATI) for complex CFD due to numerous archiectural reasons.

Same with the Nvidia lot.

The Intel Larabee may be somewhat better, but I'm not holding my breath.

Instead of the hundred-fold (or more) increase over conventional applications run on the CPU, even on simplified algorithms with current GPU archs your talking less than 10x improvment, often less than 4x improvement (rel. Clovertown).

Nehalem has already decimated that 4x improvement.

[Steven]

Guys, this topic is about what would happen... it's not called "kilcoo and concept, try to rant a bit".

The whole point here is that teams (well most of them at least) would like to see a reduction in budget, and basically go back to an engineering race, rather than the spending race Formula One has become in recent years. If they all believe they can compete with much smaller budgets, they'll be happy to do so.

And considering they will be cost limited, depending on the parts they may well decide to sell a few parts, gaining them money to develop it further for themselves only.

Btw... did anyone wonder if there would be any budget limitation in the FOTA breakaway series? I don't think Renault will agree with unlimited spending whatsoever.

[kilcoo316]

Btw... did anyone wonder if there would be any budget limitation in the FOTA breakaway series? I don't think Renault will agree with unlimited spending whatsoever.

I think FOTA's plan was to use their own measures for further cost reduction - be that wind-tunnel hours, gearbox/engine lives and exotic materials etc.

[DaveKillens]

Sadly, this affair is no closer to a resolution. So far, it appears that Ferrari will not accept Max's conditions, and go race elsewhere. And everyone is watching to see what Ferrari do. And who knows what they will do. I believe they will either join an established racing series, or forge ahead with creating a new formula series to compete directly against F1.
My money is on Lemans.

[kilcoo316]

My money is on Lemans.

LMS?

[outer_bongolia]

Did Nigel Mansell say he would like to host the breakaway series at Silverstone?

[outer_bongolia]

Another set of questions that I have is whether the new teams that signed up for 2010 are officially in a contract?
If a breakaway series happens, will the new teams be able to follow them there (assuming it will not be more expensive than $40M F1)?
Would they want to?
Is there anyone talking about this?

[gcdugas]

Another set of questions that I have is whether the new teams that signed up for 2010 are officially in a contract?
If a breakaway series happens, will the new teams be able to follow them there (assuming it will not be more expensive than $40M F1)?
Would they want to?
Is there anyone talking about this?

In theory they could leave only if they are not obligated to the FIA like Williams and Force India. Yes this isn't F2 it will cost more. Will they want to? I don't think so. They will get dusted by Williams as it is. I do think they would be welcome though.

[ESPImperium]

Another thing i was looking at was if the break away happens, what happens to Force India and Williams with their engine supply??? Does that mean that Toyota and Mercedes still get something out of F1 whilst their core buisness is in another formula???

So far, Williams and Force India have got next year sewn up for the only competition there.

Im gonna let the week play out and see what happens, i just cant judge it or make a call on this one.

[Professor]

Thanks Tomba for trying to drag this topic back on subject. I find the endless efforts to prove one's "exceptional tech understanding" are colored by an arrogant hubris that assumes the others involved are ignorant. How gauche!

The breakaway is not about technology. It is simply about who controls the technical and commercial business that is F1. Of about a billion USD revenue per year, 25% goes to CVC's debt, 50% goes to the teams, and FOM have the balance to cover the costs and whatever profit they claim. Under this arrangement, all parties involved suffer with declining gros revenues, but the 25% debt, about 250 mil USD, still must be paid every year, and will not be reduced due to revenue shrinkage. CVC will always owe that money, even if F1 does not collect one red penny from 2010 forward.

[gcdugas]

Another thing i was looking at was if the break away happens, what happens to Force India and Williams with their engine supply??? Does that mean that Toyota and Mercedes still get something out of F1 whilst their core buisness is in another formula???

So far, Williams and Force India have got next year sewn up for the only competition there.

Im gonna let the week play out and see what happens, i just cant judge it or make a call on this one.

I suspect MB and Toyota will buy out the contract. If the engines cost $8M to build and they are selling them at cost, then they may as well just give them the money instead of the engines. Why would any FOTA team want to run their engines in a series that competes with their new series for audience share. And why would they ever want to see another FIA rep hanging around with all their 4 race verification seals etc?