2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Edax]

Verstappen could not close gap
"I tried to close the gap but I picked up vibrations on the driveshaft on the rear. The team couldn't see anything, but I'm fairly sure there was something odd going on with the balance since the vibrations started to kick in," the Dutchman explained. "I did the calculations and I wouldn't have been able to close the gap with just ten laps left. I think it was more important to settle for second than having an issue with the car."

He also felt the same vibrations during qualifying. "But yesterday it just went. It snapped. Today it luckily didn't do that but it started to have a similar effect on the feeling and what I could hear," the two-time world champion added to his story.

Hmm, so Max says it was a similar feeling to yesterday.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/189727/v ... thing.html

Funny. You have this team of top notch engineers going through god knows how many GB of telemetry each lap. And you have this one guy in the car saying that they are all wrong and that he can hear an issue developing on the driveshaft.

Shows you that F1 is still a proper sport and that the driver makes a difference.

[vorticism]

The track

Hitting a curb at speed induces far more peak torque an angine ever can

Also a bad gearshift blocking the rears at speed genetates much more torque an engine ever can.

I'd have to think about that; hitting a kerb results mostly in wheel travel and tire deformation. You're saying it also translates to an unusual amount of braking/accel of the angular velocity of the wheel? As for downshift, the tire ultimately can only act against the engine via the transmission; the transmission doesn't provide the braking regardless of quality of the shift or what gear it's in.

Please do! Best draw it out and do some simple vector maths.

I'm not sure what you mean with the shift. Why downshift?

It was reported the rears would briefly lock up with shifting when RB had issues. At speed, with downforce, the engine torque is not able to slip the wheels, so a gearshift locking up the tires must induce a greater torque in the driveshaft than the engine can produce. Reducing the engine mode therefor is not limiting the peak loading of the driveshaft.

For sure the wheel and motor are linked through the gearbox, but we are likely talking about inertial energy causing these torque forces.

Yes, inertia in the drivetrain maybe; the clutch stays engaged most of the time, so engine inertia or engine braking is always there along with any geartrain inertia and driveshaft flex. As for kerbs, I recall something similar with this phenomenon, elasticity of the drivetrain providing pulses of torque. The paint and undulations might instigate something similar.

[AR3-GP]

RB had this wing in Melbourne last year (sorry I'm thinking a bit ahead now...)

Is this the Bahrain load level? 4 DRS zones for qualifying.

[AR3-GP]

Did anyone hear on the team radio what engine modes were used after the safety car and towards the end of the race?


Max's fastest lap seems kind of slow. He has 12 laps less fuel for the lap (25% race distance) but it's only 3 tenths quicker than the one Perez set on lap 38. Seems like they must have turned things down at the end.

We know Max did a lap in the 29s on the hard tire in FP3 during the day (granted a much fresher tire, but we were told there was no deg). Did they really wear that much that he only did a 31.9 on the last lap? The lap isn't that much quicker than the personal best by Alonso and Russell either, despite RB having something like over a second in race pace, the fast lap itself isn't actually that quick.

My conclusion is they must have turned something down or the driveshaft vibrations were actually affecting the pace of the car.

1 1 Max Verstappen RED BULL RACING HONDA RBPT 50 21:25:10 1:31.906 241.838
2 11 Sergio Perez RED BULL RACING HONDA RBPT 38 21:06:31 1:32.188 241.098
3 14 Fernando Alonso ASTON MARTIN ARAMCO MERCEDES 50 21:25:26 1:32.240 240.962
4 63 George Russell MERCEDES 50 21:25:31 1:32.433 240.459

[organic]

Did anyone hear on the team radio what engine modes were used after the safety car and towards the end of the race?


Max's fastest lap seems kind of slow. He has 12 laps less fuel for the lap (25% race distance) but it's only 3 tenths quicker than the one Perez set on lap 38. Seems like they must have turned things down at the end.

We know Max did a lap in the 29s on the hard tire in FP3 during the day (granted a much fresher tire, but we were told there was no deg). Did they really wear that much that he only did a 31.9 on the last lap? The lap isn't that much quicker than the personal best by Alonso and Russell either, despite RB having something like over a second in race pace, the fast lap itself isn't actually that quick.

My conclusion is they must have turned something down or the driveshaft vibrations were actually affecting the pace of the car.

1 1 Max Verstappen RED BULL RACING HONDA RBPT 50 21:25:10 1:31.906 241.838
2 11 Sergio Perez RED BULL RACING HONDA RBPT 38 21:06:31 1:32.188 241.098
3 14 Fernando Alonso ASTON MARTIN ARAMCO MERCEDES 50 21:25:26 1:32.240 240.962
4 63 George Russell MERCEDES 50 21:25:31 1:32.433 240.459

Wouldn't surprise me..probably part of why GP told max that they're not concerned about fastest lap at this point

They're clearly nursing reliability issues, but it doesn't show a great deal because of their massive advantage

[AR3-GP]

So this performance advantage is real then... Considering that Marko said they limited the development of the RB19 due to the restrictions in order to not impact the RB20

They might as well start on the RB20 then.

[organic]

So this performance advantage is real then... Considering that Marko said they limited the development of the RB19 due to the restrictions in order to not impact the RB20

They might as well start on the RB20 then.

If the rumours/insider info is correct and they already have 2 upgrades in the pipeline I guess they'll stop developing at silverstone-ish

The rb19 is certainly a monster of a car. It's not obvious why it is so quick either. Mostly subtle changes compared to the rb18

[Weachter78!]

It’s………ridiculous, point blank! Red Bull just absolutely nailed the new regulations and nobody is even close in all actuality. AM is fun to talk about, but the truth is they won’t ever catch the RB, not being a customer team of Mercedes, who absolutely have made the right choice, whatever it may be, due to being so far off on their car. Ferrari really isn’t in any better of a situation either, finishing behind the Silver Arrows. Red Bull just flat out nailed the new regs. Job very well done.

[mendis]

So this performance advantage is real then... Considering that Marko said they limited the development of the RB19 due to the restrictions in order to not impact the RB20

They might as well start on the RB20 then.

In races, they are a second and half ahead of next best car. It's really crazy that such a dominance is not based on a silver bullet (atleast not known yet). Mercedes lobby was to handicap the RB19 with changes to floor and diffuser. But it appears, that has hurt others more than RB. Replicating a silver bullet is easy, but to replicate the whole performance philosophy in a different design is a mammoth effort and a huge challenge to the collective wisdom, experience and expertise of the competing teams

[wvkc9nhe]

So this performance advantage is real then... Considering that Marko said they limited the development of the RB19 due to the restrictions in order to not impact the RB20

They might as well start on the RB20 then.

If the rumours/insider info is correct and they already have 2 upgrades in the pipeline I guess they'll stop developing at silverstone-ish

The rb19 is certainly a monster of a car. It's not obvious why it is so quick either. Mostly subtle changes compared to the rb18

Obviously, RB19 has once again reduced its weight by 10KG compared to the RB18 season, which translates to an additional advantage of 0.3 seconds per lap on top of the RB18's advantage.

[wvkc9nhe]

So this performance advantage is real then... Considering that Marko said they limited the development of the RB19 due to the restrictions in order to not impact the RB20

They might as well start on the RB20 then.

In races, they are a second and half ahead of next best car. It's really crazy that such a dominance is not based on a silver bullet (atleast not known yet). Mercedes lobby was to handicap the RB19 with changes to floor and diffuser. But it appears, that has hurt others more than RB. Replicating a silver bullet is easy, but to replicate the whole performance philosophy in a different design is a mammoth effort and a huge challenge to the collective wisdom, experience and expertise of the competing teams

I believe the key advantage for Red Bull now lies in the improvement of the engine's thrust-to-weight ratio. It should be noted that RB19 is now 20KG lighter than it was at the start of the RB19 season, which translates to a gain of 0.6 seconds per lap.

[dialtone]

So this performance advantage is real then... Considering that Marko said they limited the development of the RB19 due to the restrictions in order to not impact the RB20

They might as well start on the RB20 then.

In races, they are a second and half ahead of next best car. It's really crazy that such a dominance is not based on a silver bullet (atleast not known yet). Mercedes lobby was to handicap the RB19 with changes to floor and diffuser. But it appears, that has hurt others more than RB. Replicating a silver bullet is easy, but to replicate the whole performance philosophy in a different design is a mammoth effort and a huge challenge to the collective wisdom, experience and expertise of the competing teams

I believe the key advantage for Red Bull now lies in the improvement of the engine's thrust-to-weight ratio. It should be noted that RB19 is now 20KG lighter than it was at the start of the RB19 season, which translates to a gain of 0.6 seconds per lap.

No it doesn't . There's a minimum weight, the 20kg lighter translates to better balance of the car as they can put ballast low and where they need it to get the weight distribution they want.

They built a great car, the weight isn't why they are fast.

[AR3-GP]

In races, they are a second and half ahead of next best car. It's really crazy that such a dominance is not based on a silver bullet (atleast not known yet). Mercedes lobby was to handicap the RB19 with changes to floor and diffuser. But it appears, that has hurt others more than RB. Replicating a silver bullet is easy, but to replicate the whole performance philosophy in a different design is a mammoth effort and a huge challenge to the collective wisdom, experience and expertise of the competing teams

I believe the key advantage for Red Bull now lies in the improvement of the engine's thrust-to-weight ratio. It should be noted that RB19 is now 20KG lighter than it was at the start of the RB19 season, which translates to a gain of 0.6 seconds per lap.

They built a great car, the weight isn't why they are fast.

I have a theory that I'm working on...

Could some portion of the performance be coming from just running with less fuel due to Honda's incredible PU efficiency?

[dialtone]

I believe the key advantage for Red Bull now lies in the improvement of the engine's thrust-to-weight ratio. It should be noted that RB19 is now 20KG lighter than it was at the start of the RB19 season, which translates to a gain of 0.6 seconds per lap.

They built a great car, the weight isn't why they are fast.

I have a theory that I'm working on (lol).

Could some portion of the performance be coming from just running with less fuel due to Honda's incredible PU efficiency? We talk a lot about how the Honda "keeps pulling". If they are so effective harvesting, and already have a very slippery car, then would it be likely that they actually manage to run with less fuel than others? That's free laptime. I don't know how significant the advantage would be, but it could be some of it. Maybe 1-2 tenths.

Doubt it. At some point the weight differential goes down and would equalize performance at the end of the race, but the car is equally stronger through the race. Any fuel differential would be relatively minimal IMHO. It's purely a better car overall, while Marko may say Ferrari has the better engine, everything else is better in the RBR. While suspension might actually not be the problem at Mercedes (by looking at AMR) the engine and aero aren't working for them. The RB19 is just great overall, and even when they aren't the best (again according to Marko) they are practically equal.

The reduction in wind tunnel will make no difference when the vision is so strong in the team that they can put the car together so well. Very impressive honestly.

[wvkc9nhe]

In races, they are a second and half ahead of next best car. It's really crazy that such a dominance is not based on a silver bullet (atleast not known yet). Mercedes lobby was to handicap the RB19 with changes to floor and diffuser. But it appears, that has hurt others more than RB. Replicating a silver bullet is easy, but to replicate the whole performance philosophy in a different design is a mammoth effort and a huge challenge to the collective wisdom, experience and expertise of the competing teams

I believe the key advantage for Red Bull now lies in the improvement of the engine's thrust-to-weight ratio. It should be noted that RB19 is now 20KG lighter than it was at the start of the RB19 season, which translates to a gain of 0.6 seconds per lap.

No it doesn't . There's a minimum weight, the 20kg lighter translates to better balance of the car as they can put ballast low and where they need it to get the weight distribution they want.

They built a great car, the weight isn't why they are fast.

Thank you for your reply. Of course, I am aware that there is a minimum weight limit for F1 cars. It was admitted by Red Bull's internal engineers at the end of last season that at the beginning of the 2022 season, Red Bull was over the minimum weight limit by an exaggerated 20 kilograms, and even at the end of the 2022 season, it was still overweight by 10 kilograms. However, at the beginning of the 2023 season, Red Bull has reduced the weight to the minimum limit. Around the 2022 summer break, Red Bull successfully reduced the weight by 10 kilograms without a major aerodynamic upgrade, resulting in a significant performance boost. This year's Red Bull design is a continuation of last year's, but if they can reduce another 10 kilograms, they will have domination on par with Mercedes' W11.