Ferrari SF23

[Andi76]

After the race in Saudi Arabia, it must be noted that the problems of the SF-23 in terms of tires is different and yet similar to its predecessor, the F1-75. They have obviously improved as far as the soft tire is concerned, because the first stint of Charles Leclerc was very good in terms of pace and degradation / wear. However, the SF-23, like its predecessor, did not work with hard tires. It was not brought up to temperature. In Bahrain, on the other hand, tire degradation was generally quite high. Even though the soft tires worked well in Saudi Arabia, it's obvious that the SF-23 also has problems in terms of tire usage. I theorized last year that Ferrari might have the problem that the contact frequencies are too high, which would have explained their problems in 2022. Too high contact frequencies harden and stiffen the rubber compound and can only be compensated by higher temperatures, which soften the compound. But the tire comes up to temperature quickly at first. You also have to know that tires contain chemicals that are supposed to keep the tire soft. If contact frequencies had been too high in 2022, there would have been extreme tire degradation in the race, but an advantage in qualifying. A similar situation can be observed in 2023, as the F1-23 is significantly better in qualifying than in the race. However, since the soft tire worked well in Saudi Arabia, but you had high degradation in Bahrain and the hard(like in 2022) basically doesn't work, I think supports this theory. These different compounds work in different windows and different asphalt heats the tires differently and above all wears the tires differently. A rapidly thinning tread is less able to retain heat and the tire is less able to maintain temperature. This would explain Ferrari's tire problems and why they often have a problem. In Saudi Arabia, they might have had the right temperature with the soft tire to compensate for the hardening caused by the contact frequencies being too high. Due to the smooth asphalt and the low degree of wear, this temperature could be kept stable for a long time, whereas this was not possible in Bahrain due to the rapidly thinning tread. So you would have looked good in both races in qualifying, but suffered from high degradation in the Bahrain race, while the soft tire would have worked well in the Saudi race. With the hard tire, on the other hand, whose harder compound can withstand higher contact frequencies, it would then be possible despite this that it would not be brought to the right temperature.

[Vanja #66]

***
These different compounds work in different windows and different asphalt heats the tires differently and above all wears the tires differently. A rapidly thinning tread is less able to retain heat and the tire is less able to maintain temperature. This would explain Ferrari's tire problems and why they often have a problem. In Saudi Arabia, they might have had the right temperature with the soft tire to compensate for the hardening caused by the contact frequencies being too high. Due to the smooth asphalt and the low degree of wear, this temperature could be kept stable for a long time, whereas this was not possible in Bahrain due to the rapidly thinning tread. So you would have looked good in both races in qualifying, but suffered from high degradation in the Bahrain race, while the soft tire would have worked well in the Saudi race. With the hard tire, on the other hand, whose harder compound can withstand higher contact frequencies, it would then be possible despite this that it would not be brought to the right temperature.

Indeed, though to me it looks like this was just one part of their issues. The other one is the downforce deficit compared to RB even with bigger rear wing. This suggests floor was raised compared to Bahrain. Even if they still need to learn to extract the most from the car, it's clear they definitely won't be able to jump over RB when they do extract the most from it.

Big operational issues, unsurprising with all the chaos Vigna has introduced...

[Andi76]

***
These different compounds work in different windows and different asphalt heats the tires differently and above all wears the tires differently. A rapidly thinning tread is less able to retain heat and the tire is less able to maintain temperature. This would explain Ferrari's tire problems and why they often have a problem. In Saudi Arabia, they might have had the right temperature with the soft tire to compensate for the hardening caused by the contact frequencies being too high. Due to the smooth asphalt and the low degree of wear, this temperature could be kept stable for a long time, whereas this was not possible in Bahrain due to the rapidly thinning tread. So you would have looked good in both races in qualifying, but suffered from high degradation in the Bahrain race, while the soft tire would have worked well in the Saudi race. With the hard tire, on the other hand, whose harder compound can withstand higher contact frequencies, it would then be possible despite this that it would not be brought to the right temperature.

Indeed, though to me it looks like this was just one part of their issues. The other one is the downforce deficit compared to RB even with bigger rear wing. This suggests floor was raised compared to Bahrain. Even if they still need to learn to extract the most from the car, it's clear they definitely won't be able to jump over RB when they do extract the most from it.

Big operational issues, unsurprising with all the chaos Vigna has introduced...

Yes, that's true, of course. I would imagine Red Bull has brought the "roof" of its Venturi tunnels closer to the ground and they are no longer as high as last year, while Ferrari may have gone the other way around, which would almost be a bit ironic...I'm curious to see how both cars look on the bottom.

[FDD]

***
These different compounds work in different windows and different asphalt heats the tires differently and above all wears the tires differently. A rapidly thinning tread is less able to retain heat and the tire is less able to maintain temperature. This would explain Ferrari's tire problems and why they often have a problem. In Saudi Arabia, they might have had the right temperature with the soft tire to compensate for the hardening caused by the contact frequencies being too high. Due to the smooth asphalt and the low degree of wear, this temperature could be kept stable for a long time, whereas this was not possible in Bahrain due to the rapidly thinning tread. So you would have looked good in both races in qualifying, but suffered from high degradation in the Bahrain race, while the soft tire would have worked well in the Saudi race. With the hard tire, on the other hand, whose harder compound can withstand higher contact frequencies, it would then be possible despite this that it would not be brought to the right temperature.

Indeed, though to me it looks like this was just one part of their issues. The other one is the downforce deficit compared to RB even with bigger rear wing. This suggests floor was raised compared to Bahrain. Even if they still need to learn to extract the most from the car, it's clear they definitely won't be able to jump over RB when they do extract the most from it.

Big operational issues, unsurprising with all the chaos Vigna has introduced...

I think that Elkan is the one who introduced the chaos, Vigna is only his police officer.
"Even if they still need to learn to extract the most from the car, it's clear they definitely won't be able to jump over RB when they do extract the most from it.", I start to think that this car is simply don't fast enough.
This makes me wonder if it's time to start thinking about next season.

[Vanja #66]

"Even if they still need to learn to extract the most from the car, it's clear they definitely won't be able to jump over RB when they do extract the most from it.", I start to think that this car is simply don't fast enough.
This makes me wonder if it's time to start thinking about next season.

I didn't express correctly, they won't jump over RB, but I think they can get close. And they will need to work hard on developments. It's better to keep improving over the year and build on that then to redo everything again for 2024, they might have made too many changes for SF-23 and are running into car behaviour phenomena they didn't anticipate.

[Venturiation]

"Even if they still need to learn to extract the most from the car, it's clear they definitely won't be able to jump over RB when they do extract the most from it.", I start to think that this car is simply don't fast enough.
This makes me wonder if it's time to start thinking about next season.

I didn't express correctly, they won't jump over RB, but I think they can get close. And they will need to work hard on developments. It's better to keep improving over the year and build on that then to redo everything again for 2024, they might have made too many changes for SF-23 and are running into car behaviour phenomena they didn't anticipate.

Vasseur commented on this, even if they bring upgrades the concept doesn't have potential to reach redbull , they are working on the car since 2022 and now winter of 2023

it's clear the car has fundemental flaws in the concept when you see haas having the same problems with tyres deg
Alfa doesn't have it and they use their own suspension

And according to Mtotorsport italy they have already switched to Redbull concept for 2024

This year ferrari is basically W13 in 2022 with promised simulator performance that never shows on track

[F1NAC]

"Even if they still need to learn to extract the most from the car, it's clear they definitely won't be able to jump over RB when they do extract the most from it.", I start to think that this car is simply don't fast enough.
This makes me wonder if it's time to start thinking about next season.

I didn't express correctly, they won't jump over RB, but I think they can get close. And they will need to work hard on developments. It's better to keep improving over the year and build on that then to redo everything again for 2024, they might have made too many changes for SF-23 and are running into car behaviour phenomena they didn't anticipate.

Vasseur commented on this, even if they bring upgrades the concept doesn't have potential to reach redbull , they are working on the car since 2022 and now winter of 2023

it's clear the car has fundemental flaws in the concept when you see haas having the same problems with tyres deg
Alfa doesn't have it and they use their own suspension

And according to Mtotorsport italy they have already switched to Redbull concept for 2024

This year ferrari is basically W13 in 2022 with promised simulator performance that never shows on track

It's Nugnes, don't believe anything he's writting,,,

[Vanja #66]

It's Nugnes, don't believe anything he's writting,,,

No need to comment on Nugnes and Vasseur literally said the opposite

The potential of the car is good, but it’s not enough compared to Red Bull, because we are not able to extract the maximum from the car every time.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... /10446339/

[Andi76]

"Even if they still need to learn to extract the most from the car, it's clear they definitely won't be able to jump over RB when they do extract the most from it.", I start to think that this car is simply don't fast enough.
This makes me wonder if it's time to start thinking about next season.

I didn't express correctly, they won't jump over RB, but I think they can get close. And they will need to work hard on developments. It's better to keep improving over the year and build on that then to redo everything again for 2024, they might have made too many changes for SF-23 and are running into car behaviour phenomena they didn't anticipate.

I'm starting to wonder to what extent the new Pirelli tires are related. I think we all remember 2013, I think, where the introduction of the old Pirelli tires suddenly led to Red Bull winning every race, while Ferrari crashed. I also remember in 1997 when they found seconds with the F310B, and that was only because Ross and Michael welcomed doing the tire development for Goodyear and immediately saw the advantage, while Villeneuve and Frentzen were too lazy to do it. So they were able to fight for the title in 1997 with a Barnard-built car that was much worse than Williams' FW19. I also heard that the values of the SF-23 are actually right, but that there is something wrong with the tires. Maybe they should switch back to the 2022 tires now

I know it's not pleasant, but I'm also considering that the SF-23 concept might actually be problematic. I was told in 2022, after the introduction of the TD39, that the FIA had made the F1-75 side box concept obsolete. This came from a Ferrari technician. I am not an aerodynamicist so I dare not judge here, personally I think the concept itself is still logical and actually promising. What the aerodynamic concept has nothing to do with, however, is tire degradation as someone here speculates. Too little downforce - okay. But the aero concept itself - how is that possible? This possibility does not open up to me and will probably remain a mystery that not even he himself can answer.

[christian.falavena]

Hi guys, i wrote here my personal reflection on the telemetry data seen during the race.

"While Ferrari's degradation in Jeddah was comparable to Red Bull's thanks in part to the more loaded monopylon wing, the performance deficit purely indicated by the cruel stopwatch was not resolved. But where did the delta between Verstappen and Leclerc's times increase the most?

Ferrari maintained the strong point of traction: always, over the 3 " sample" lap I've took of the Jeddah race, Charles was gaining (although we are talking thousandths) on Verstappen. The biggest difference, however, is in the center of the corner, especially at low speeds, where the mechanical grip offered by the chassis and suspension system acquires less relevance than the aerodynamics of the car as we approach - ideally we mean - the kinematic steering conditions, that is, the "ideal" one, without approximations.
The delta between the two is literally in "steps", which increase in cornering and then regain constancy in traction and straight.
But what can cause this phenomenon? Certainly the SF23 is a car that appeared from the start to suffer from severe understeer, with Red Bull probably having a more advanced CofP (Center of Pressure, a kind of "center of gravity" of the aerodynamic forces), ensuring a good load at the front
This is determined, yes, by the wings and the body, but above all by the bottom, which with ground effect cars acquires first-rate importance
Ferrari has good aerodynamic efficiency on the straight, a factor on which it has nothing to envy Red Bull. Excluding from the discussion the chassis issue for the reason mentioned above (although Ferrari has changed the third element, mechanical first and hydraulic now), it would thus seem to be more a problem of the car's bottom, an area that offers "free" load, that is, one that does not penalize in terms of drag by slowing down the car on the straights.
Partial confirmation of this may be found in the fact that Ferrari tested a new bottom as early as Friday, with substantial changes at the bottom rather than at the edge set aside, however, after the usual data collection.
A new bottom in the second race is a fairly substantial change to be a simple and unimportant "corrective." And it further testifies to how much the Ferrari car concept was designed on rules that with the TD39 first and the new regulations later, were changed quite a bit."

I've explained this on a blog, so it's explained in a very simple way, but let me know what you think

[Vanja #66]

I'm starting to wonder to what extent the new Pirelli tires are related.
****

Whatever the reason behind tyre trouble, the tyres are the same for everyone - RB and AM understand them very well. Others clearly need to step up It's not good for Ferrari not to have personnel dedicated to tyres alone, if this information is true.

I know it's not pleasant, but I'm also considering that the SF-23 concept might actually be problematic. I was told in 2022, after the introduction of the TD39, that the FIA had made the F1-75 side box concept obsolete. This came from a Ferrari technician. I am not an aerodynamicist so I dare not judge here, personally I think the concept itself is still logical and actually promising. What the aerodynamic concept has nothing to do with, however, is tire degradation as someone here speculates. Too little downforce - okay. But the aero concept itself - how is that possible? This possibility does not open up to me and will probably remain a mystery that not even he himself can answer.

We discussed this last year briefly also, if I remember. The TD039 and 2023 floor rule change influence floor and ride height operating window, no doubt. But, to influence the sidepods? Doesn't make sense to me, at all... If it did, we must assume they would have changed them, but instead they are "just" tighter and evolved.

[Andi76]

***
These different compounds work in different windows and different asphalt heats the tires differently and above all wears the tires differently. A rapidly thinning tread is less able to retain heat and the tire is less able to maintain temperature. This would explain Ferrari's tire problems and why they often have a problem. In Saudi Arabia, they might have had the right temperature with the soft tire to compensate for the hardening caused by the contact frequencies being too high. Due to the smooth asphalt and the low degree of wear, this temperature could be kept stable for a long time, whereas this was not possible in Bahrain due to the rapidly thinning tread. So you would have looked good in both races in qualifying, but suffered from high degradation in the Bahrain race, while the soft tire would have worked well in the Saudi race. With the hard tire, on the other hand, whose harder compound can withstand higher contact frequencies, it would then be possible despite this that it would not be brought to the right temperature.

Indeed, though to me it looks like this was just one part of their issues. The other one is the downforce deficit compared to RB even with bigger rear wing. This suggests floor was raised compared to Bahrain. Even if they still need to learn to extract the most from the car, it's clear they definitely won't be able to jump over RB when they do extract the most from it.

Big operational issues, unsurprising with all the chaos Vigna has introduced...

I think that Elkan is the one who introduced the chaos, Vigna is only his police officer.
"Even if they still need to learn to extract the most from the car, it's clear they definitely won't be able to jump over RB when they do extract the most from it.", I start to think that this car is simply don't fast enough.
This makes me wonder if it's time to start thinking about next season.

I now only call Elkann and Vigna "Ferrari's curse". I think you have to look at the whole thing from a completely logical point of view. The top teams were Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari. Mercedes generally shot themselves in the head with a concept that had many rubbing their eyes and wondering how they were going to adequately control the front-wheel wake without the bargeboards and corresponding outwash. They then immediately chased a second bullet, if I may put it so casually, by stubbornly sticking to this concept, which was obviously wrong for many. Ferrari had gone for a "real" ground effect car, with Venturi tunnels that were very deep and the best possible rear wing and beam to work them to the maximum. The introduction of the TD39 and the higher ground gaps have severely damaged this concept, but perfectly accommodated Red Bull's concept, which Vanja has already summarized in great detail several times.

Red Bull was not only able to develop without problems exactly where others first had to clear up problems, no, they were also given an almost one-year head start in development. So I don't think it's surprising that Red Bull is outperforming everyone else. As for Ferrari - "Ferrari's curse" has struck and ensured that exactly those people who developed and best understood this concept were fired or decided to leave in November, the most important development phase of the car. That these people certainly didn't give much more to bring the car to where it should have been is understandable I think. And so now you are left with a car that is probably a) two or even three months behind in development and b) with completely logical problems in the technical department when the two most important people leave. Add to that the new tires that seem to be causing problems and a helplessness as to what to do, which is not surprising, especially when the man who developed this concept and knows best what to do has just left. All this has and has had an impact since November. I think it is not only logical that Red Bull is so far ahead, but also that Mercedes is slowly overtaking Ferrari. Personally, I expected Ferrari to fall behind, even though I had hoped that the SF-23 would be developed in such a way that it would be in the lead at the beginning of the season, before starting to fall behind. But unfortunately the effects of the actions of "Ferrari's curse" set in earlier, which I think leads to the SF-23 we see now. It's not a car whose concept is wrong, that's bullshit, a car whose concept is wrong doesn't go nearly as fast in qualifying as the dominant car of the season. Such a car is simply not fully developed or has problems in a certain area (tires, suspension or similar). But this is my opinion and "analysis" based on my observations and information available to me. This may be wrong, right or both at the same time.

To be honest, I don't think any team can catch up with Red Bull. They got a huge gift in 2022 with the TD39 and a head start in development. I don't think that, at least after everything that has happened at Ferrari and Mercedes, they can catch up in 2023 or even 2024. To be honest, I think it would be best for Ferrari to focus most its resources now on 2026 already. As Ross Brawn did with Benetton for 1994, or at Mercedes in 2010 for 2014....surely that would be radical and extreme, but it has given Mercedes an era of dominance. And since Ferrari has "Ferrari's curse," it probably wouldn't end in dominance, but might be enough for a title or two.

[Andi76]

I'm starting to wonder to what extent the new Pirelli tires are related.
****

Whatever the reason behind tyre trouble, the tyres are the same for everyone - RB and AM understand them very well. Others clearly need to step up It's not good for Ferrari not to have personnel dedicated to tyres alone, if this information is true.

It is true. But don't get it wrong - of course Ferrari has one or two engineers who take care of the tires. But not like in Ross and Rory's time or like at Red Bull where they are already integrated into the design process and other components are designed accordingly so that everything harmonizes perfectly with the tires. But I have heard that they have now entrusted an engineer with this. However, I do not know who or if that is true

We discussed this last year briefly also, if I remember. The TD039 and 2023 floor rule change influence floor and ride height operating window, no doubt. But, to influence the sidepods? Doesn't make sense to me, at all... If it did, we must assume they would have changed them, but instead they are "just" tighter and evolved.

I wonder what he meant. "Made our sidepod concept obsolete" was what he said...I can't make sense of it either. But if you can't, how could I!

[matteosc]

We discussed this last year briefly also, if I remember. The TD039 and 2023 floor rule change influence floor and ride height operating window, no doubt. But, to influence the sidepods? Doesn't make sense to me, at all... If it did, we must assume they would have changed them, but instead they are "just" tighter and evolved.

I wonder what he meant. "Made our sidepod concept obsolete" was what he said...I can't make sense of it either. But if you can't, how could I!

I think it could mean that their sidepod concept is related to a way of working the floor which is no longer that effective with the new rules.
As we all know very well, everything is related and I would not be surprised that a change in the front wing rules affects the rear wing concept...

[Andi76]

Certainly the SF23 is a car that appeared from the start to suffer from severe understeer, with Red Bull probably having a more advanced CofP (Center of Pressure, a kind of "center of gravity" of the aerodynamic forces), ensuring a good load at the front
This is determined, yes, by the wings and the body, but above all by the bottom, which with ground effect cars acquires first-rate importance
Ferrari has good aerodynamic efficiency on the straight, a factor on which it has nothing to envy Red Bull. Excluding from the discussion the chassis issue for the reason mentioned above (although Ferrari has changed the third element, mechanical first and hydraulic now), it would thus seem to be more a problem of the car's bottom, an area that offers "free" load, that is, one that does not penalize in terms of drag by slowing down the car on the straights.
Partial confirmation of this may be found in the fact that Ferrari tested a new bottom as early as Friday, with substantial changes at the bottom rather than at the edge set aside, however, after the usual data collection.
A new bottom in the second race is a fairly substantial change to be a simple and unimportant "corrective." And it further testifies to how much the Ferrari car concept was designed on rules that with the TD39 first and the new regulations later, were changed quite a bit."

To be honest, I don't think the CoP is that much further forward on the Red Bull. The CoG has a very small margin and especially in the corners you mention you need a slightly rear biased CoP so the car doesn't oversteer. Also you have to know that with today's floors and diffusers, these floors and the larger diffuser has to be fed with more air given the entire floor is sealed and there is minimum flow encroachment into the main flow structure of the underflow. If the floor is not sealed properly the suction of the diffuser tries to pull air from the surrounding environment. Thats why teams try to lower the edges of the floor. They want to minimize the flow encroachment as the diffuser may get affected by the vector field of the incoming flow. Flat floors required lesser air volume to work. This is why they worked way better in the low-speed corners but as the airspeed is increased and the diffuser is fed with high air volume, the venturi tunnels work better. So venturi needs more air to work, and the extraction of the diffuser today is way higher than the pre-2022. So the underbody itself doesn't necessarily play the overriding role in these areas you identify. Here, the mechanical grip of the suspension plays a greater role. Certainly there will be differences in these two cars in that regard. But I don't think they are so serious that they explain the loss/gain of Ferrari/Red Bull in these sections, because on the one hand the ground in these slow sections doesn't play the overriding role and the area in which you want/must have the CoP here is rather limited. I think an interaction of several factors is rather the cause here. But I could also be wrong. In any case, it's a well-executed theory that I think is rather unlikely, but still possible.