Mercedes W14

[Farnborough]

My contention is that they are, by their own design intent, making a floor that targets absolute peak downforce, all while trying to cancel a significant lift elsewhere in the chassis.

I'd say it's producing as much or less floor DF than the other cars. Unpopular take is that the mid wings produce no great effect, they're mainly aero neutral and have to be there because the SIPS need to be covered.With their sidepods they ended up with the worst of both worlds: a low DF high drag car. Consider its missing one major feature that every car has had for the past two decades or so, which is essential to making the floor work well.

I am of the same opinion; I feel like they’d have to be fairly neutral or else you risk having a lot of induced drag.

This is the bit I really don't understand, is everyone ASSUMING that it's neutral, or forming an opinion about that mid wing from very basic aero knowledge?

I just cannot see how it doesn't generate lift with that profile.

Just take a helicopter rotor blade (in section it's similar) and passed through the air will generate substantial lift. The helicopter blade is even presented to the air at a reduced angle of attack in comparison to the MB mid wing.

Yes, I do know the helicopter example has area based on length, but profile in section is decent comparison.

[mantikos]

Elliot is on the record stating the obvious, the shoulders are empty space. Yes, the weight of the carbon fiber is up there but that would amount to nearly nothing.

Correct, the shoulder is actually a legality issue regarding the minimum radius of the sidepod bodywork, as opposed to an intended aerodynamic feature. That's why most teams have the circular cannon outlets.

Except it is still weight regardless of how little that is up much higher then the AMR22 and especially the RB19's. If teams are removing paint to save weight then surely even just a lightweight piece of carbon fibre high up can't be beneficial either even if it has nothing inside it.

You are conflating striving to meet the minimum weight with CoG now

[NutritionFact]

https://imgbb.com/1dq4VX0



I have to ready The how to Post a Photo... Sorry

[AA_2019]

It is being reported that the w13 and w14 design problems have now been identified, they were due to the wind tunnel model using parts with incorrect parameters.

The relavant employees have been sacked for their schoolboy errors

This sounds so unbelievable I know

[Edax]

It is being reported that the w13 and w14 design problems have now been identified, they were due to the wind tunnel model using parts with incorrect parameters.

The relavant employees have been sacked for their schoolboy errors

This sounds so unbelievable I know

with link:

https://www.formu1a.uno/en/mercedes-win ... ntil-2024/

[zibby43]

This is one I am going to need a second source to corroborate because it just seems . . . farcical.

[ringo]

I’d be interested in how that’s possible, especially to get so wrong it’s affecting the results.

I’m no expert with 3d-design, but surely if you create a scale model (which is likely how they work in the design, then they just resize the parts by x% in order to get them to the size of the wind tunnel.

Those parts then get 3d printed straight from your software and into the wind tunnel.

I dont they got it wrong. It seems parts were intentionally made different; ie corruption or fraud.
The 3d model is made to full scale. Then the scaled down parts are probably 3d printed.
There is no need to change dimensions or geometry to scale a part. Someone intentionally manipulated the shape of the part. Possibly overwriting the original with the tweaked part... Or using differently configured parts (thought to be the same part across workflows) in different tools or departments. Very interesting if true at Mercedes. Sounds like sabotage to me.
No one had any reason to do this at their workplace. The only excuse for innocence is if some file overwriting took place and different people working with older versions of the files, thinking they all have the most recent updated parts files

[ringo]

So the big gains the team seem to be talking about suddenly discovering might not be a new concept at all, it might just be adjusting the current one to work as intended (but was messed up by wind tunnel issues)?

This could mean.. zero pod was the best all along.. it just was never built right.

[ringo]

I'd say it's producing as much or less floor DF than the other cars. Unpopular take is that the mid wings produce no great effect, they're mainly aero neutral and have to be there because the SIPS need to be covered.With their sidepods they ended up with the worst of both worlds: a low DF high drag car. Consider its missing one major feature that every car has had for the past two decades or so, which is essential to making the floor work well.

I am of the same opinion; I feel like they’d have to be fairly neutral or else you risk having a lot of induced drag.

This is the bit I really don't understand, is everyone ASSUMING that it's neutral, or forming an opinion about that mid wing from very basic aero knowledge?

I just cannot see how it doesn't generate lift with that profile.

Just take a helicopter rotor blade (in section it's similar) and passed through the air will generate substantial lift. The helicopter blade is even presented to the air at a reduced angle of attack in comparison to the MB mid wing.

Yes, I do know the helicopter example has area based on length, but profile in section is decent comparison.

Yes they produce lift on the ends.
But the centre and root are more neutral.
The intention is to create the donwash to influence the flow to the sides downstream. The lift is a necessary evil to get the downwash.
It shows the zeropod has compromises and needs that downwash.
The designers are smart to make the tips bulky.
The downwash is less sensitive to pitching.
The poor hanlding comes from thaf downwash angle varying sith speed, and thus changing aero behavior from that shifting downwash stream.
Notice how bulky they are on the ends, .

[carisi2k]

Correct, the shoulder is actually a legality issue regarding the minimum radius of the sidepod bodywork, as opposed to an intended aerodynamic feature. That's why most teams have the circular cannon outlets.

Except it is still weight regardless of how little that is up much higher then the AMR22 and especially the RB19's. If teams are removing paint to save weight then surely even just a lightweight piece of carbon fibre high up can't be beneficial either even if it has nothing inside it.

You are conflating striving to meet the minimum weight with CoG now

No I'm saying that if the small amount of weight saved by removing paint is that important then a similar or more amount of weight from the higher cannon exits should also have an effect on the balance of the car as well. Especially as the W14 is a very tall and narrow concept.

[Vanja #66]

It really doesn't...

[Stu]

I’d be interested in how that’s possible, especially to get so wrong it’s affecting the results.

I’m no expert with 3d-design, but surely if you create a scale model (which is likely how they work in the design, then they just resize the parts by x% in order to get them to the size of the wind tunnel.

Those parts then get 3d printed straight from your software and into the wind tunnel.

I dont they got it wrong. It seems parts were intentionally made different; ie corruption or fraud.
The 3d model is made to full scale. Then the scaled down parts are probably 3d printed.
There is no need to change dimensions or geometry to scale a part. Someone intentionally manipulated the shape of the part. Possibly overwriting the original with the tweaked part... Or using differently configured parts (thought to be the same part across workflows) in different tools or departments. Very interesting if true at Mercedes. Sounds like sabotage to me.
No one had any reason to do this at their workplace. The only excuse for innocence is if some file overwriting took place and different people working with older versions of the files, thinking they all have the most recent updated parts files

First bold - big conspiracy creation, is this how RedBull actually broke the budget cap in 2021….?

Second italics - this is exactly what happens; the model has to be adjusted for Reynolds number compatibility for correlation purposes.

Third bold - conspiracy continues…

Fourth bold/italics - has this conspiracy been reported elsewhere?

Please bring some linked reports or facts to support this argument, if true it would be a bigger scandal than Ferrari-gate!!

[FW17]

Sounds more like the technical team found a scapegoat to continue with the precent concept.

[Femi]

I am not sure how reliable this story is. I imagine the creation of the 3D model is part of the W14 project deliverable. If so, quality control should have picked out the anomaly. This is looking at this from pure project management perspective. It could also be that I read the story wrong!

[ringo]

I’d be interested in how that’s possible, especially to get so wrong it’s affecting the results.

I’m no expert with 3d-design, but surely if you create a scale model (which is likely how they work in the design, then they just resize the parts by x% in order to get them to the size of the wind tunnel.

Those parts then get 3d printed straight from your software and into the wind tunnel.

I dont they got it wrong. It seems parts were intentionally made different; ie corruption or fraud.
The 3d model is made to full scale. Then the scaled down parts are probably 3d printed.
There is no need to change dimensions or geometry to scale a part. Someone intentionally manipulated the shape of the part. Possibly overwriting the original with the tweaked part... Or using differently configured parts (thought to be the same part across workflows) in different tools or departments. Very interesting if true at Mercedes. Sounds like sabotage to me.
No one had any reason to do this at their workplace. The only excuse for innocence is if some file overwriting took place and different people working with older versions of the files, thinking they all have the most recent updated parts files

First bold - big conspiracy creation, is this how RedBull actually broke the budget cap in 2021….?

Second italics - this is exactly what happens; the model has to be adjusted for Reynolds number compatibility for correlation purposes.

Third bold - conspiracy continues…

Fourth bold/italics - has this conspiracy been reported elsewhere?

Please bring some linked reports or facts to support this argument, if true it would be a bigger scandal than Ferrari-gate!!

I will emphasize this is speculation on my part on what would cause a bypass of the checks and balances in what is a a very secured and controlled process flow.
A champion team suddenly dropping the ball on quality screams of dilution of competence, a void filled with inexperienced workers, or some foul play.
The good news is the concept may well be viable and mercedes saves some money to correct the w14.