Mercedes W14

[fourmula1]

I dont they got it wrong. It seems parts were intentionally made different; ie corruption or fraud.
The 3d model is made to full scale. Then the scaled down parts are probably 3d printed.
There is no need to change dimensions or geometry to scale a part. Someone intentionally manipulated the shape of the part. Possibly overwriting the original with the tweaked part... Or using differently configured parts (thought to be the same part across workflows) in different tools or departments. Very interesting if true at Mercedes. Sounds like sabotage to me.
No one had any reason to do this at their workplace. The only excuse for innocence is if some file overwriting took place and different people working with older versions of the files, thinking they all have the most recent updated parts files

First bold - big conspiracy creation, is this how RedBull actually broke the budget cap in 2021….?

Second italics - this is exactly what happens; the model has to be adjusted for Reynolds number compatibility for correlation purposes.

Third bold - conspiracy continues…

Fourth bold/italics - has this conspiracy been reported elsewhere?

Please bring some linked reports or facts to support this argument, if true it would be a bigger scandal than Ferrari-gate!!

I will emphasize this is speculation on my part on what would cause a bypass of the checks and balances in what is a a very secured and controlled process flow.
A champion team suddenly dropping the ball on quality screams of dilution of competence, a void filled with inexperienced workers, or some foul play.
The good news is the concept may well be viable and mercedes saves some money to correct the w14.

Often it can be chalked up to very simple things. A simple key stroke, a misread print, a bad cutter, a plate not square to begin with. Its not hard to make make the wrong part or make something out of spec. To me there's no mystery there. The mystery is in the reporting...like wait...what was wrong, how wrong, and how is it the root cause of the lack of performance.

[ringo]

Yes but lets say that simple error occurs.
There should be some quality control or hold point where before the part is passed from one station to the next it is checked for conformance. If it fails its flagged and process stopped, and correction done.
Hence why i feel it's very hard for the error to pass through so many stations and processes and the noncompliance is not detected at all.
But maybe I am over estimating the quality control in an F1. In oil and gas these things are taken very seriously. The equipment has to operate for years continously as opposed to a car that's dissasembled each weekend.

[taperoo2k]

Yes but lets say that simple error occurs.
There should be some quality control or hold point where before the part is passed from one station to the next it is checked for conformance. If it fails its flagged and process stopped, and correction done.
Hence why i feel it's very hard for the error to pass through so many stations and processes and the noncompliance is not detected at all.
But maybe I am over estimating the quality control in an F1. In oil and gas these things are taken very seriously. The equipment has to operate for years continously as opposed to a car that's dissasembled each weekend.

I'd guess there was a failure in the quality control with the 3D models at the design stage that then went into production. I'd assume Mercedes probably put too much trust in the data from the wind tunnel and probably went on a few goose chases trying to figure the problem out, before they stumbled on the error if this report is true. I mean if they have dismissed employees over it? Maybe those employees knew about the mistake and covered it up? Doesn't have to be sabotage as some seem to want to jump to. Simple incompetence makes much more sense than sabotage.

If the report is true, then maybe the W14 isn't a lost cause after all. I doubt this is the kind of mistake Mercedes would want to own up to, it tends to tarnish the PR image of Mercedes being highly competent and professional in the design and production of it's cars.

[mstar]

Sounds like if the employees got sacked definately must of been junior/new people as an experienced modeller wouldn't of made a mistake like that. They must of not been great a the job as they got sacked. My question is if these guys have worked before and vetted etc how could they make such a mistake??? it puzzles me there surely be some kind of QC here?

[Wil992]

Yes but lets say that simple error occurs.
There should be some quality control or hold point where before the part is passed from one station to the next it is checked for conformance. If it fails its flagged and process stopped, and correction done.
Hence why i feel it's very hard for the error to pass through so many stations and processes and the noncompliance is not detected at all.
But maybe I am over estimating the quality control in an F1. In oil and gas these things are taken very seriously. The equipment has to operate for years continously as opposed to a car that's dissasembled each weekend.

Doesn’t it depend where the error* is? If you’re manufacturing based on a spec from a design dept, and build something that exactly matches the spec you’ve been given, then qc in manufacturing is not going to pick up the fact that the spec was wrong all along.

*yes, I know, we don’t even know there was an error, it’s not confirmed.

[Edax]

I have no experience with tunnels but I can imagine something like a badly manufactured bracket or interface to mount the model could mess up the readings. These things happen.

But i don’t see how that could send a team on a goose chase for 2 years, without additional errors being made. You make a model, you do a test to verify the model. When these don’t add up you investigate until you have found and understand the cause.

This sounds like it took them a very long time to investigate their issues and retrace their steps. A bit lame to blame that on an engineer who made the original mistake.

Besides. A design track should not have a single point of failure. If that is the case the onus should be on the lead engineers and management for allowing that to exist.

[AR3-GP]

I think some are again looking for a silver bullet, but these WT issues are likely being blown out of proportion.

The rumor hasn't even been verified. It was a rumor, and it probably doesn't even belong in this thread.

[atanatizante]

It depends on WHERE the tolerance issue occurred.

Small inaccuracies in top body aero surfaces will have minimal to negligible effects.

Defects in underbody geometry will have larger effects on the aero numbers. A very dangerous error to make is getting floor heights wrong.

Could this be a prove why they are lacking downforce knowing how much could be lost when the car is running even half a millimetre lower to the ground or there is no correlation between the floor/Venturi tunnels height and what height they are running the car?

What baffles me is that Elliot said their wind tunnel/CFD numbers were matching with the data record in testing ...

Having said that why Toto said they can't run the car so low eventually as RB19 does? W14's new suspension has longer travel which in return gives them a good ride height over the bumps and kerbs. Is that the floor it`s too much rigid now?

[Stu]

A whole bunch of posts that veer OT regarding pace, speed, car comparison, team design choices have been moved to the Team thread.
An interesting veer, and I’m in a good mood , so it moves…

[Holm86]

Is the gearbox housing homologated? Or can they change it during the season?

Wondering if its possible for them to convert from pull to pushrod at the rear, to gain more space in the diffuser area, just like did?

[Matt2725]

Is the gearbox housing homologated? Or can they change it during the season?

Wondering if its possible for them to convert from pull to pushrod at the rear, to gain more space in the diffuser area, just like did?

They can change it. Not sure how cheap it would be to do so though with the funds they have available under the cap.

[Holm86]

Is the gearbox housing homologated? Or can they change it during the season?

Wondering if its possible for them to convert from pull to pushrod at the rear, to gain more space in the diffuser area, just like did?

They can change it. Not sure how cheap it would be to do so though with the funds they have available under the cap.

Apparently not:

9.5
Homologated Gearbox and Component Classification
The design of the Cassette, Driveline Components (with the exception of the gear ratios, for
which the provisions of Article 9.7.2 apply), Gear-Change components and Auxiliary
Components must be homologated by each gearbox supplier before the start of the 2022
season and must not be modified, except in exceptional circumstances, throughout the 2022,
2023, 2024 and 2025 seasons. A single upgrade to the gearbox specification will be permitted
during this four-year period, such change only being permitted between two consecutive
Championship Seasons. This will be the only gearbox design that can be used in the
Championship by the supplying competitor. This upgrade must be made available to
customer competitors, who may opt to continue with the original specification and upgrade
in a subsequent year.
Modifications may be made to resolve reliability problems after approval has been granted
by the FIA. The reliability problem must be clearly documented and the modification must
not give any performance advantage. A summary of the modification will be circulated to all
teams.
With reference to Article 40.3 of the Sporting Regulations, if a Gearbox part is subsequently
replaced after a qualifying practice session by another which differs only by one or more
modifications permitted by this article 9.5, the replacement Gearbox part will be considered
the same in design and similar in mass, inertia and function.
Modifications may be made for cost saving, at the start of each season, after approval has
been granted by the FIA. The cost saving must be clearly documented and the modification
must not give any performance advantage. A summary of the modification will be circulated
to all teams.
If a team uses a Gearbox Case with an Integrated Cassette, the Gearbox Case may be
modified before the start of each new season provided that:
a. The layout of the Driveline Components, Gear-Change components and Auxiliary
Components is unchanged, except for a translation, as a group, in X.
b. The part of the case considered as Cassette remains unchanged, except for a translation
in X.
Approval of the modification must be granted by the FIA.
The Gearbox, as defined in Article 9.1.1, is classified as TRC.

[Matt2725]

Is the gearbox housing homologated? Or can they change it during the season?

Wondering if its possible for them to convert from pull to pushrod at the rear, to gain more space in the diffuser area, just like did?

They can change it. Not sure how cheap it would be to do so though with the funds they have available under the cap.

Apparently not:

9.5
Homologated Gearbox and Component Classification
The design of the Cassette, Driveline Components (with the exception of the gear ratios, for
which the provisions of Article 9.7.2 apply), Gear-Change components and Auxiliary
Components must be homologated by each gearbox supplier before the start of the 2022
season and must not be modified, except in exceptional circumstances, throughout the 2022,
2023, 2024 and 2025 seasons. A single upgrade to the gearbox specification will be permitted
during this four-year period, such change only being permitted between two consecutive
Championship Seasons. This will be the only gearbox design that can be used in the
Championship by the supplying competitor. This upgrade must be made available to
customer competitors, who may opt to continue with the original specification and upgrade
in a subsequent year.
Modifications may be made to resolve reliability problems after approval has been granted
by the FIA. The reliability problem must be clearly documented and the modification must
not give any performance advantage. A summary of the modification will be circulated to all
teams.
With reference to Article 40.3 of the Sporting Regulations, if a Gearbox part is subsequently
replaced after a qualifying practice session by another which differs only by one or more
modifications permitted by this article 9.5, the replacement Gearbox part will be considered
the same in design and similar in mass, inertia and function.
Modifications may be made for cost saving, at the start of each season, after approval has
been granted by the FIA. The cost saving must be clearly documented and the modification
must not give any performance advantage. A summary of the modification will be circulated
to all teams.
If a team uses a Gearbox Case with an Integrated Cassette, the Gearbox Case may be
modified before the start of each new season provided that:
a. The layout of the Driveline Components, Gear-Change components and Auxiliary
Components is unchanged, except for a translation, as a group, in X.
b. The part of the case considered as Cassette remains unchanged, except for a translation
in X.
Approval of the modification must be granted by the FIA.
The Gearbox, as defined in Article 9.1.1, is classified as TRC.

Well screw me then. I was convinced.

I'll shut up.

[PhillipM]

Depends how much of it is the overcasing that the pickups usually hang on these days. After all Mclaren repacked it into a pushrod already.

[OO7]

Red Bull first demonstrated this extremely narrow gearbox/casing back in 2021, so Mercedes have known about it for a while now.