The RB and the AMR are more similar in the subtle ways. Front suspension and underfloor.PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑28 Mar 2023, 03:56That's why Alonso says the Alpine is the most similar car to his AMR 23.
The RB and the AMR are more similar in the subtle ways. Front suspension and underfloor.PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑28 Mar 2023, 03:56That's why Alonso says the Alpine is the most similar car to his AMR 23.
Don't think anyone ever implied they stopped flexing completely, just that they can't take the piss with it like they did before.Vanja #66 wrote: ↑27 Mar 2023, 14:02So, rear wings don't flex any more?
https://i.ibb.co/hfrjXQ7/jeddah-2023-williams-flex.jpg
Just as a reminder, camera is fixed on the chassis, so the suspension movement under braking is observed with rear tyre movement (also marked)
i was about to say, seems like a lot more cluttered on the alpine.continuum16 wrote: ↑28 Mar 2023, 16:17Amazing to me just how different the front suspension geometry is between the Alpine and Aston in that pic.
RB19 rear seems narrower than SF23 but perhaps it's an optical illusion because of the cannon outlets on the RB.
The image shows it pretty well, the RB floor around the diffuser has a lot more space for the diffuser tunnels.atanatizante wrote: ↑30 Mar 2023, 13:55Which are the reasons behind W14's wide gearbox? or it`s just the gearbox casing?
And in addition, how much is W14`s diffuser affected by this wide gearbox casing compared to RB19?
http://postimg.cc/T59wHqSr
By far the best post I've read in this thread, +1 for your observationringo wrote: ↑25 Mar 2023, 20:16I noticed something about the floors of the RB18 and the W13 last year.
The venturi under the RB18 floor has it's narrow area further downstream. I do not know if this was addressed with W14.
Also redbull have more generous volume under the floor because the venturi is gentler.
As the venturi ends, the diffuser starts. So very aggressive expansion at the rear diffuser relative to the front of the floor.
On the other hand Mercedes with their first floor iteration of the ground effect rules, have a more symetrical floor front to rear, but this may be where it loses out. Lower, more restrictive underfloor volume and the centre of pressure is more forward. There is more of a delay downstream of the lowest point of the venturi before the rear diffuser.
Additionally, the expansion between front center vane and centre floor wall under the RB18 also have more volume, and has a less tight expansion rate compared to W13. Note the blue line and arrows. W13 vanes are closer together and expansion rate is "tighter" as you downstream.
RBR could also be create a little nozzle jet stream with the two converging outer vanes to influence the flow at the edge of the floor downstream.
https://i.ibb.co/N9SWkrn/W13-VSRB18.png
But yes, the main and fundamental difference is the tunnel volume and the venacontracta of the floor. Redbull delays the venacontracta further downstream, then rapidly expands again into the rear diffuser.
W14 is more balance, but this results in a less volume under the car upstream the venacontra point, and can explain why it is more sensitive to ride. The RB has a better buffer due to its distribution of underfloor volume. It prioritizes the intake volume expansion over the rear, which is the outlet volumetric expansion. As to why this is done, I do not know. I am just pointing out my observations.
There are also mini diffusers between two planes of the floor "T", ie plank plane and tunnel roof. Indicating that the reference plane is playing some role in the ground effect as well for RBR.
In conclusion mercedes could investigate this if they haven't already. It makes more sense to me why RBR has the floor cut out where it is. The upper outwash and the rear biased venacontracta are linked.
https://f1i.autojournal.fr/wp-content/u ... _w13_5.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FT3w6SFWYAA ... ame=medium
its kind of amazing how simple and elementary the merc looks compared to the redbull as well. it almost looks like mercedes bought a prefabbed part somewhere.Mtshali_Motorsport wrote: ↑30 Mar 2023, 21:43By far the best post I've read in this thread, +1 for your observationringo wrote: ↑25 Mar 2023, 20:16I noticed something about the floors of the RB18 and the W13 last year.
The venturi under the RB18 floor has it's narrow area further downstream. I do not know if this was addressed with W14.
Also redbull have more generous volume under the floor because the venturi is gentler.
As the venturi ends, the diffuser starts. So very aggressive expansion at the rear diffuser relative to the front of the floor.
On the other hand Mercedes with their first floor iteration of the ground effect rules, have a more symetrical floor front to rear, but this may be where it loses out. Lower, more restrictive underfloor volume and the centre of pressure is more forward. There is more of a delay downstream of the lowest point of the venturi before the rear diffuser.
Additionally, the expansion between front center vane and centre floor wall under the RB18 also have more volume, and has a less tight expansion rate compared to W13. Note the blue line and arrows. W13 vanes are closer together and expansion rate is "tighter" as you downstream.
RBR could also be create a little nozzle jet stream with the two converging outer vanes to influence the flow at the edge of the floor downstream.
https://i.ibb.co/N9SWkrn/W13-VSRB18.png
But yes, the main and fundamental difference is the tunnel volume and the venacontracta of the floor. Redbull delays the venacontracta further downstream, then rapidly expands again into the rear diffuser.
W14 is more balance, but this results in a less volume under the car upstream the venacontra point, and can explain why it is more sensitive to ride. The RB has a better buffer due to its distribution of underfloor volume. It prioritizes the intake volume expansion over the rear, which is the outlet volumetric expansion. As to why this is done, I do not know. I am just pointing out my observations.
There are also mini diffusers between two planes of the floor "T", ie plank plane and tunnel roof. Indicating that the reference plane is playing some role in the ground effect as well for RBR.
In conclusion mercedes could investigate this if they haven't already. It makes more sense to me why RBR has the floor cut out where it is. The upper outwash and the rear biased venacontracta are linked.
https://f1i.autojournal.fr/wp-content/u ... _w13_5.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FT3w6SFWYAA ... ame=medium
to answer the bold highlighted point, the overall shape of the RedBull floor from the side view plane is direct resemblance to the flat floors of the old regulations with the front of the floor raised up at an angle, maybe it could be that they took the 2021 RB16B and modified it for the new technical regulations.
In context to Mercedes I feel that the key to fixing their problems with the W14 is for them to revisit the W12. There are hidden parallels that old car has which has not been explored or exploited that majority of people haven't picked up yet.
just a thought.....
I think they were targeting higher downforce than mercedes over a wider range of ground clearances.atanatizante wrote: ↑28 Mar 2023, 13:42Do you think that RB18`s floor was targeting not for inconstant, unpredictable peak downforce as W13 had but rather for a lower one which was more constant and predictable?ringo wrote: ↑25 Mar 2023, 20:16I noticed something about the floors of the RB18 and the W13 last year.
The venturi under the RB18 floor has it's narrow area further downstream. I do not know if this was addressed with W14.
Also redbull have more generous volume under the floor because the venturi is gentler.
As the venturi ends, the diffuser starts. So very aggressive expansion at the rear diffuser relative to the front of the floor.
On the other hand Mercedes with their first floor iteration of the ground effect rules, have a more symetrical floor front to rear, but this may be where it loses out. Lower, more restrictive underfloor volume and the centre of pressure is more forward. There is more of a delay downstream of the lowest point of the venturi before the rear diffuser.
Additionally, the expansion between front center vane and centre floor wall under the RB18 also have more volume, and has a less tight expansion rate compared to W13. Note the blue line and arrows. W13 vanes are closer together and expansion rate is "tighter" as you downstream.
RBR could also be create a little nozzle jet stream with the two converging outer vanes to influence the flow at the edge of the floor downstream.
https://i.ibb.co/N9SWkrn/W13-VSRB18.png
But yes, the main and fundamental difference is the tunnel volume and the venacontracta of the floor. Redbull delays the venacontracta further downstream, then rapidly expands again into the rear diffuser.
W14 is more balance, but this results in a less volume under the car upstream the venacontra point, and can explain why it is more sensitive to ride. The RB has a better buffer due to its distribution of underfloor volume. It prioritizes the intake volume expansion over the rear, which is the outlet volumetric expansion. As to why this is done, I do not know. I am just pointing out my observations.
There are also mini diffusers between two planes of the floor "T", ie plank plane and tunnel roof. Indicating that the reference plane is playing some role in the ground effect as well for RBR.
In conclusion mercedes could investigate this if they haven't already. It makes more sense to me why RBR has the floor cut out where it is. The upper outwash and the rear biased venacontracta are linked.
https://f1i.autojournal.fr/wp-content/u ... _w13_5.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FT3w6SFWYAA ... ame=medium
And in order to compensate for the downforce loss from the floor they focused on diffuser to produce more of it, by running it harder through increasing expansion of it by designing rounded upper corner diffuser edges and by running a pull road rear suspension heading for unobstructed clean airflow at the back of the car? And last, but not least for having a vertical slit at the end of the diffuser vertical fence, if I`m not wrong ...
With this year's modified floor rules, it seems that the RB19 car is running as low as possible (as the W13 car did last year) in order to compensate for the downforce loss and it`d be interesting to know how they`re able to run it so low that sparks in qualy trim but didn`t have this kind of issue ones the car is in race trim ...