What if the breakaway happens?

[kilcoo316]

The teams have had ample time to increase the thermal efficiency of the engines, they could care less,

They have been increasing the efficiency of the engines, thermal or otherwise.

If they weren't, we wouldn't be seeing the power increases we do. If they weren't, we wouldn't be seeing the reductions in cooling requirements that we do (i.e. smaller rads).


I suggest you go ask someone like Mario Theissen if they care about engine thermal efficiency in F1, and you'll get a pretty quick answer.

now you want them to carry around an extra tank for water for a 5th & 6th cycle

Yeap.

Assuming the steam stroke provides just half the energy of the ignition stroke, then you are looking at a 30% reduction in sfc.

If the steam stroke provides the same amount of energy,a s the ignition stroke your looking at a 30% torque increase with a 30% reduction in sfc.


Either way, you also remove virtually all of your cooling requirements for the upper engine.



It probably wouldn't be worth the teams while to investigate it without regulation, due to the highly tuned nature of current engines. However, it would definitely move it from a niche research area to a level of maturity where industry would consider further research on it with a view to use in road vehicles.

That is where F1 should be. We all know that very few technologies come direct from track to car, but fundamentals do, like CF brakes, or CFRP structural components.


Max is stupid enough to think F1 KERS applies in the general world, whereas in reality its far detached.

The 6 stroke engine requires further fundamental research. KERS does not.

[ISLAMATRON]

If the technology is not well suited for racing then it would not be on the McLaren or the Ferrari right now, and if it wasnt regulated down to 400kJ you would see it on more F1 cars.

Environmental effects of KERS are minimal, the batteries can be easily recycled, and all this energy goes towards technology that will find its way to road cars eventually.

of course the KERS is too heavy, this is the first iteration and it is regulated to the point of insignificance, so its power to weight ratio is also restricted, but it still provides more power than the dead weight ballast that it is replacing.

[ISLAMATRON]

Max is stupid enough to think F1 KERS applies in the general world, whereas in reality its far detached.

The 6 stroke engine requires further fundamental research. KERS does not.

That is an absurd statement, especially when earlier you say "Ask Mario" and when he was asked he said that F1 KERS can directly relate. It was Mercedes road car division that put together the McMerc KERS system, so to say it has no relevance to road cars is totally wrong. KERS is really nothing more than regen braking and all the car manufacturers are researching that field.

Both of the systems would be good avenues of further research.

[kilcoo316]

That is an absurd statement, especially when earlier you say "Ask Mario" and when he was asked he said that F1 KERS can directly relate.

Which is of course why BMW were in favour of it and are now dumping it.

Regenerative braking does not use anything like the same motors as F1. Nor does it help that it is reliant on the battery world for storage.


Mechanical systems (that are yet to race in F1) are somewhat better... at least its fundamentally a new area and not dependant on batteries.

It was Mercedes road car division that put together the McMerc KERS system, so to say it has no relevance to road cars is totally wrong.

Point out where I said it has "no relevance".

KERS is really nothing more than regen braking and all the car manufacturers are researching that field.

Battery KERS is limited by batteries. That is far outside the area of expertise of F1 teams.

Mechanical solutions are within their specialist areas, and are more pertinent.


However, once again, improving the thermo efficiency by 10% is far more useful than any KERS system.

[ISLAMATRON]

Which is of course why BMW were in favour of it and are now dumping it.

Regenerative braking does not use anything like the same motors as F1. Nor does it help that it is reliant on the battery world for storage.
Mechanical systems (that are yet to race in F1) are somewhat better... at least its fundamentally a new area and not dependant on batteries.

BMW is not dumping it, they were among the FOTA teams that voted against dumping it but they were overvoted by the ignorant teams. The motors that the F1 cars used are limited by the 60kW limit, and are designed for their purpose, but other than that the fundamentals remain the same for an electric motor/generator and any advancements in those motors can be directly translated to MGU's on new hybrid vehicles.

Mechanical systems are not yet in F1 because the ignorant teams regulated the KERS output to 400kJ, that is also the same reason the batteries are so prevalent.

Point out where I said it has "no relevance".

Max is stupid enough to think F1 KERS applies in the general world, whereas in reality its far detached.

pretty much

KERS is limited by batteries. That is far outside the area of expertise of F1 teams.
Mechanical solutions are within their specialist areas, and are more pertinent.

However, once again, improving the thermo efficiency by 10% is far more useful than any KERS system.

There was a time where aerodynamics was "far outside the area of expertise of F1 teams." Is that still the case?

KERS is not limited to batteries, KERS HAs been limited to batteries with the 400kJ limit, take off the limit and watch the batteries disappear.

and lastly, improving the thermo efficiency of the ICE by 10% is not nearly as easy as you are trying to make it seem.

[xpensive]

A 700 kg object, such as an F1 car, carries 1700 kJ of kinetic energy at 250 km/h.

That energy would last for six seconds to overcome the air-resistance at the same speed.

400 kJ of stored KERS energy will as a consequence last for 1.4 seconds.

[jddh1]

A 700 kg object, such as an F1 car, carries 1700 kJ of kinetic energy at 250 km/h.

That energy would last for six seconds to overcome the air-resistance at the same speed.

400 kJ of stored KERS energy will as a consequence last for 1.4 seconds.

We can thank Mosley for being an idiot and not thinking through the restrictions/requirements. I don't even wanna know who recommended these numbers.

There was a time where aerodynamics was "far outside the area of expertise of F1 teams." Is that still the case?

I agree with you on this one. But if you want KERS let the teams develop one over a few years. They way Mosley went about it was wrong.

[xpensive]

Mosley is a lawyer Yid. As a New Yorker, you should know about those?

[ISLAMATRON]

A 700 kg object, such as an F1 car, carries 1700 kJ of kinetic energy at 250 km/h.

That energy would last for six seconds to overcome the air-resistance at the same speed.

400 kJ of stored KERS energy will as a consequence last for 1.4 seconds.

We can thank Mosley for being an idiot and not thinking through the restrictions/requirements. I don't even wanna know who recommended these numbers.

There was a time where aerodynamics was "far outside the area of expertise of F1 teams." Is that still the case?

I agree with you on this one. But if you want KERS let the teams develop one over a few years. They way Mosley went about it was wrong.

It was not Mosely, it was the Ferrari(and maybe a couple other teams) who castrated KERS.

400kJ is not of Mosley's supidity like the V8's were, it is of the teams stupidity.

[kilcoo316]

BMW is not dumping it, they were among the FOTA teams that voted against dumping it but they were overvoted by the ignorant teams.

Yeap. They aren't in favour of dumping it from the rules... just their cars.

Any advancements in those motors can be directly translated to MGU's on new hybrid vehicles.

Most are buying motors from Magnetti-Marelli...

Electric motors are already highly efficient. There are even research motors of 95+% efficiency.

There is relatively little scope for development in electric motors.

Mechanical systems are not yet in F1 because the ignorant teams regulated the KERS output to 400kJ, that is also the same reason the batteries are so prevalent.

Ignorant teams?

It was the FIA that limited the energy and power.

"The adoption of energy recovery leaves me rather perplexed because the system chosen by the FIA is really primitive.

The potential of hybrid engines is immense, but the solution chosen by the FIA restricts itself to recover energy from the rear wheels. The parameters involved should be more."

pretty much

Far detached =/= no relevance

There was a time where aerodynamics was "far outside the area of expertise of F1 teams." Is that still the case?

That is 40 years ago. It is also an entirely different field. The iteration of aerodynamic panels towards an optimum is not comparable to the development of new chemicals for batteries.

A relatively small team can work on aerodynamics. The facilities required for chemical research on batteries are different ball-park.

KERS is not limited to batteries, KERS HAs been limited to batteries with the 400kJ limit, take off the limit and watch the batteries disappear.

Yeap... because packaging a larger flywheel in a relatively fixed location is sooo easy.

and lastly, improving the thermo efficiency of the ICE by 10% is not nearly as easy as you are trying to make it seem.

No - I don't believe you!

Yet a 10% improvement would affect the world much more signficantly than any tidbit savings from KERS.

[ISLAMATRON]

Yeap. They aren't in favour of dumping it from the rules... just their cars.

only because they are having trouble with the aero and cant focus on too many things at 1 time, the aero is more important than the KERS, mainly because of the BS 400kJ limit.

Most are buying motors from Magnetti-Marelli...
Electric motors are already highly efficient. There are even research motors of 95+% efficiency.
There is relatively little scope for development in electric motors.

Yes the efficiency is high, but they are still heavy and bulky, that is where the advancements need to come from

It was the FIA that limited the energy and power.

IT was not the FIA, it was the leading teams that did not want to grid order upset that demanded those restrictions. The FIA relented and put them into the rules, remeber how FErrari has a veto over all technical rules?

Luca was complaining about the FIA when in reality it was FErrari castrating KERS.

That is 40 years ago. It is also an entirely different field. The iteration of aerodynamic panels towards an optimum is not comparable to the development of new chemicals for batteries.

A relatively small team can work on aerodynamics. The facilities required for chemical research on batteries are different ball-park.

Bullshit, the amount of money put into Wind tunnels and CFD and the engineers to run them has been immense... relatively small team? GTFUH, Williams has ballooned to 700 and they still struggle, F1 has long outsourced work and batteries are no different, just like they used to outsource aero work.

Yeap... because packaging a larger flywheel in a relatively fixed location is sooo easy.

nope just spin it a little faster or add another one, nothing in F1 is easy, it is all challenging...

Yet a 10% improvement would affect the world much more signficantly than any tidbit savings from KERS.

They've been working on the ICE for over 100 years, how much more do you think they are gonna get out of it? and how much will it cost them? diminishing returns, it is time to research into new directions

[xpensive]

And for the bottom line;
Even if you go from 250 km/h to ZERO with your 700 kg F1 car , five times per lap, with a magic 100% recovery KERS, there's still no more than 8500 kJ to be gained.
Not even in theory.

Btw, thanks kilcoo.

[ISLAMATRON]

And for the bottom line;
Even if you go from 250 km/h to ZERO with your 700 kg F1 car , five times per lap, with a magic 100% recovery KERS, there's still no more than 8500 kJ to be gained.
Not even in theory.

Btw, thanks kilcoo.

Nobody is saying the aero drag shouldn't be cleaned up, but there are still major gains to be made from KERS, I've previously pointed out to you how it compounds itself.

Why do you act as if they can only do one or the other? is there some part of KERS that does not allow them to make the cars more aero efficient?

[timbo]

is there some part of KERS that does not allow them to make the cars more aero efficient?

If money is a part of KERS, I would say so)))
Look at Brawn. Made conscious decision to dump KERS in favor of aero and mechanical balance research. And won.

[ISLAMATRON]

is there some part of KERS that does not allow them to make the cars more aero efficient?

If money is a part of KERS, I would say so)))
Look at Brawn. Made conscious decision to dump KERS in favor of aero and mechanical balance research. And won.

That car started out years ago, with the idea of fitting a Honda KERS system, they almost lucked out this year(seeing they didnt test the new tires tlll later then everyone else) with the whole tire imbalance situation, and again if Ferrari didnt castrate KERS to 400kJ, and it was unlimited do you think BGP would still be winning without it?


please read
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73208