What if the breakaway happens?

[xpensive]

Touche, timbo.

Moreover, when we are talking hundreds of millions of EUR in development cost for those measly 400 kJ, what could you have done with that dole on a serious "green" agenda?

Perhaps increasing the efficiency of the engine from 20 to 22%, which would have saved you 2700 kJ per lap, if you had begun at 4 liters of gasoline per lap.

[ISLAMATRON]

Touche, timbo.

Moreover, when we are talking hundreds of millions of EUR in development cost for those measly 400 kJ, what could you have done with that dole on a serious "green" agenda?

Perhaps increasing the efficiency of the engine from 20 to 22%, which would have saved you 2700 kJ per lap, if you had begun at 4 liters of gasoline per lap.

the "measly 400kJ" is the teams fault, they could have spent the same amount of money and developed a much more powerful system.

increasing the engine from 20 to 22%(10 % increase) would need a total redesign of the engine, and how much would that cost? it would surely be an xpensive idea!

[timbo]

and again if Ferrari didnt castrate KERS to 400kJ, and it was unlimited do you think BGP would still be winning without it?

If it weighted 50+ kg... I believe yes.

please read
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73208

You know I see Mosley who is a lawyer claiming that Mario Theissen (twice doctorate in engineering) is not competent to decide what is relevant for the industry...
I also see that he hails Patric Head as "real engineer" and Williams' KERS is still hasn't debuted on track and same Patric Head, after Newey left, was responsible for design of cars that were called "tanks". I also read that he admits that it is FIA which enforced the rules that stopped innovation, yet he talks about "their (teams') cozy world where if you make it one thousandth of a millimetre thinner, it will be just that little bit quicker".

I see Grand Master of Words.

[xpensive]

True Islam, I never said it would come cheap, perhaps even a few hundred of million EUR on aggregate.
Just like KERS.

[xpensive]

If we try to see tings from another angle, to xellerate a 50 kg xtra mass, from 100 to 250 km/h, five times over one lap, that's 500 kJ. All by m*V^2/2, can't help it.

[kilcoo316]

only because they are having trouble with the aero and cant focus on too many things at 1 time, the aero is more important than the KERS, mainly because of the BS 400kJ limit.

Yes... because the aerodynamicists, model makers and CFD guys were working on the drivetrain...

Yes the efficiency is high, but they are still heavy and bulky, that is where the advancements need to come from

Which is material science.

IT was not the FIA, it was the leading teams that did not want to grid order upset that demanded those restrictions. The FIA relented and put them into the rules, remeber how FErrari has a veto over all technical rules?

Ferrari don't have any effective veto over the rules... has the budget cap not taught you that.

I wouldn't mind some links to indicate Ferrari were behind the FIA's restriction on the capacity/power if you don't mind.

Bullshit, the amount of money put into Wind tunnels and CFD and the engineers to run them has been immense...

That has built over time.

How much investment do you think the teams would have to make to get into chemical storage R&D?

They've been working on the ICE for over 100 years, how much more do you think they are gonna get out of it? and how much will it cost them? diminishing returns, it is time to research into new directions

F1 is limited to 4 stroke engines.

The 6 stroke engine is totally undeveloped. Its quite surprising it has stayed under the radar this long.

[ISLAMATRON]

and again if Ferrari didnt castrate KERS to 400kJ, and it was unlimited do you think BGP would still be winning without it?

If it weighted 50+ kg... I believe yes.

If you watched Turkey you saw how well Kovi was able to hold off Rubans with mainly the help of KERS. That was with only 400kJ of KERS which weighs maybe 25 kg in the McMerc, if the weight was maybe 50kg, but with 2MJ9(5x as much energy, 2.5 times the power/weight ratio) I dont think the BGP could have even had the laptimes to catch him.

LMP1(900kg) cars are heavier than LMP2(825kg) cars, but their higher power/weight ratio make them much faster, thus would be the case for an unlimited KERS system.

You know I see Mosley who is a lawyer claiming that Mario Theissen (twice doctorate in engineering) is not competent to decide what is relevant for the industry...
I also see that he hails Patric Head as "real engineer" and Williams' KERS is still hasn't debuted on track and same Patric Head, after Newey left, was responsible for design of cars that were called "tanks". I also read that he admits that it is FIA which enforced the rules that stopped innovation, yet he talks about "their (teams') cozy world where if you make it one thousandth of a millimetre thinner, it will be just that little bit quicker".

I see Grand Master of Words.

HAving read all that when it was fresh it was obvious that Mosley & Theissen wee talking about 2 different things and the media made it seem that they were talking about the same thing, when they weren't, it was all about the difference between the road relevance of batteries vs flywheels. and yes the FIA enforced the rules that the teams came up with for the most part, that is there role as a regulating third party.

[kilcoo316]

If you watched Turkey you saw how well Kovi was able to hold off Rubans with mainly the help of KERS.

The same Rubens Barrichello that was missing top gear by chance?

HAving read all that when it was fresh it was obvious that Mosley & Theissen wee talking about 2 different things and the media made it seem that they were talking about the same thing, when they weren't, it was all about the difference between the road relevance of batteries vs flywheels.

But your the man saying they should be using flywheels in F1... the same flywheels Mario Theissen is pointing out won't work in road cars...

[ISLAMATRON]

Yes... because the aerodynamicists, model makers and CFD guys were working on the drivetrain...

We both know that when you are faced with a problem you dont fully understand the first thing you do is simplify, that is what they did. Also they have realized that their KERS is not as competitive as the MERC or the magnetti system.

Ferrari don't have any effective veto over the rules... has the budget cap not taught you that.

The court case they lost has clearly taught us that they do, the budget cap has shown us that they dont fully understand what the term voluntary means. They had a chance to use there veto and they didnt do it at the right time.

I wouldn't mind some links to indicate Ferrari were behind the FIA's restriction on the capacity/power if you don't mind.

I provided a link which talks about the leading teams fighting for a restriction, the leading teams at the time were Ferrari &
McMerc.

How much investment do you think the teams would have to make to get into chemical storage R&D?

Not much because it will be outsourced just like it has, Bosch, magnetti, Flybrid, they have all jumped into the arena because the F1 teams had a need for it. I dont know the names of the battery companies that have been contracted.

F1 is limited to 4 stroke engines.

The 6 stroke engine is totally undeveloped. Its quite surprising it has stayed under the radar this long.

Yes F1 is limited to 4 stroke, but the auto industry isnt, doesnt it tell you something that there are more KERS cars on the road than there are 6 stoke engines? especially with hybrid cars being much more recent than the ICE?

[timbo]

That was with only 400kJ of KERS which weighs maybe 25 kg in the McMerc, if the weight was maybe 50kg, but with 2MJ9(5x as much energy, 2.5 times the power/weight ratio) I dont think the BGP could have even had the laptimes to catch him.

I just don't see how you are able to produce KERS with 5x energy and only 2x weight. Why then just simply not make present KERS only 10 kg?
Personally I quite like KERS as intelligent push-to-pass system. I only find Max's comments on his role as promoter of green technology and technical freedom ridiculous.

[ISLAMATRON]

The same Rubens Barrichello that was missing top gear by chance?

Ah HA! I forgot about that, or really i didnt know until days after the race, nonetheless we have seen KERS cars holding off and passing superior non-KERS cars all season thus far.

But your the man saying they should be using flywheels in F1... the same flywheels Mario Theissen is pointing out won't work in road cars...

I say they should use whatever is best, I happen to disagree with Theissin I think flywheel tech has much potential, i personally vant see why they wouldnt work in a road car.

[ISLAMATRON]

That was with only 400kJ of KERS which weighs maybe 25 kg in the McMerc, if the weight was maybe 50kg, but with 2MJ9(5x as much energy, 2.5 times the power/weight ratio) I dont think the BGP could have even had the laptimes to catch him.

I just don't see how you are able to produce KERS with 5x energy and only 2x weight. Why then just simply not make present KERS only 10 kg?
Personally I quite like KERS as intelligent push-to-pass system. I only find Max's comments on his role as promoter of green technology and technical freedom ridiculous.

A turbo V8 can make 1000 hp where as a I4 can make only 200, and the V8 can weigh less than twice the I4... I know its not a direct comparison, but look how the Williams flywheel can hold more power than the mcMerc batteries, but since the flywheel system is 10kg heavier it cannot compete with the McMerc system because it is regulated to 400kJ, but if it was unlimited it would blow the McMerc system out of the water, even though it was 10kg heavier.

From FOTA's demands we can see that they dont care about technical freedom, so what is wrong i MAx refocuses on it? HE has seen the error in restricting everything down to the smallest measurement and wishes to redirect F1 in a different way that I happen to agree with. restricting budgets and allowing technical freedom within those restricted budgets, makes much more sense to me then tightening the regs to the point where it is very expensive to gain any speed, and the the budgets skyrocket because of it while technical freedom disappears. Common sense to me.

[siskue2005]

I provided a link which talks about the leading teams fighting for a restriction, the leading teams at the time were Ferrari & McMerc.

How convenient to Blame everything on Ferrari, just shows your hatred rather than a proper discussion!
"A leading team" How did you conclude it is Ferrari :^o [-X

Mclaren, Renault, BMW , Toyota are all leading teams!

Infact it was BMW who were insisting on KERS's introduction this season and the ONLY TEAM who wanted it soooo badly! It could be this team who wanted it restricted as they and Mclaren have already been working on it for 1 whole year.
Unlike Ferrari's KERS which was a last minute patch up work after the MM Kers didnt work for them!

And the recent Veto case taught us that Ferrari have not used their Veto since its been signed, and they tried to use it now...without success.

[xpensive]

Power in a combustion engine comes from amount of oxygene molecules consumed, the 1985 BMW 1500cc I-4, pumped out 1300+ Hp in qualifying trim. Watching Nelson Piquet at Östrreichring that year was like beholding an F1 car on xtacy. Dry-ice flying off the intercooler, engineering magic, we were drooling.

That was a thousand kW, or 1000 kJ per second.

[Ogami musashi]

timbo:

To sum up; We may not agree on what is innovative (but suggest you to take the examples quoted by islamatron on 4WD with KERS and assymetrical automatic moveable wings), that's fine.

But would you disagree that from a situation where more freedom was given (so more interesting solutions) we'll end up with less freedom and that is WORSE?

And won't you agree that MOVEABLE WINGS, were a good solution for overtaking and that now it is all --- up thanks to FOTA?


That's my rational...they just again, like they did with V8's nixed progress just to be sure to win by the financial ressources they put in.