2023 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 28 - 30

[Bill]

I predicted the pole right, Ferrari have an efficient car this year. Still, a very good lap by Lec, deserved pole. the Ferrari clearly better balanced in those tight corners. Mercedes was a let down, didn’t expect them to be off. And certainly not by this much. So they have an inefficient car this year. On these highspeed tracks they will not be able to compete.

its all about engine power and deployment ferrari was already raking poles last year these efficient or inefficient thing its just bs.the top two cars in the straights are the honda powered cars of alpha and redbull. do you think the alpha is the paragon of efficiency,in a normal track they are among the backmarkers on these track they are q3 and faster than merc a car that was second last race.merc domination ended when honda built a better pu than theirs and wont recover until the next set of regulation in 2026.

[deadhead]

Indeed, something did shift during that 2021 season when Honda brought their latest creation, but you can't really say that aero efficiency is bs...

[dialtone]

I predicted the pole right, Ferrari have an efficient car this year. Still, a very good lap by Lec, deserved pole. the Ferrari clearly better balanced in those tight corners. Mercedes was a let down, didn’t expect them to be off. And certainly not by this much. So they have an inefficient car this year. On these highspeed tracks they will not be able to compete.

its all about engine power and deployment ferrari was already raking poles last year these efficient or inefficient thing its just bs.the top two cars in the straights are the honda powered cars of alpha and redbull. do you think the alpha is the paragon of efficiency,in a normal track they are among the backmarkers on these track they are q3 and faster than merc a car that was second last race.merc domination ended when honda built a better pu than theirs and wont recover until the next set of regulation in 2026.

The difference in engine is minimal, you would mostly see clipping rather than anything else, and there isn't much clipping from Ferrari. Top speed is ruled by aero efficiency and it's not even close how much more aero matters.

Speed of RBR and Ferrari with closed DRS is identical.

[Bill]

the only thing that propel the car to those top speed is the engine.people are so eager to talk about ferrari engine but redbull its always about aero efficiency,i find it odd and very curious.you cant look at ferrari over just one lap in a quali trim,you have to look at a series of laps the ferrari ers fall short,thats one of reason they cant repeat their quali miracle over a race distance.

[dialtone]

the only thing that propel the car to those top speed is the engine.people are so eager to talk about ferrari engine but redbull its always about aero efficiency,i find it odd and very curious.you cant look at ferrari over just one lap in a quali trim,you have to look at a series of laps the ferrari ers fall short,thats one of reason they cant repeat their quali miracle over a race distance.

Honda electric deployment is better, both because their efficiency saves that power through the lap, and because that electric engine is just better at recovery. Everyone has been saying this forever and it has been confirmed in this forum.

Ferrari's ICE on the other hand is the better ICE, less confirmed here by insiders but plenty of articles from last year quoting other teams (RBR and Merc) saying this.

Even with these 2 aspects, the difference is only a few bhp overall. Out of 1000bhp, if you manage 10bhp more you have 1% more power but sadly speed goes at the cube of power meaning you're at best looking at 1-2kph due to engine at equal aero efficiency. You would notice it more in acceleration but that's a lot harder to grasp and depends on more factors like traction, gearing and so on.

If you are looking at exolanations for why a car is 10kph faster than another this year, it's unlikely due to the engine.

[Cs98]

They had 10+ laps last year to pass LEC, almost all of those with DRS, similar thing in Miami where they had 8 laps to pass and yet Max was able only to pass into T1 after LEC botched T17 allowed Max to beat him in acceleration.

Top speed differences between these 2 cars are too small to be enough to pass easily when both are setup for low drag, you need to set it up over a few laps. For other cars it's a different deal though.

You are talking as if the only reason Leclerc was holding on was because of straight line speed and not because the F1-75 was a genuinely quick car. In Baku Max was on the edge of DRS for pretty much all of those laps, with Leclerc in the tow of Perez. That's a difficult pass even with better SL-speed. In Miami Max wasn't even in DRS for the first 6 or 7 laps because the Ferrari was faster in S1.

SL-speed just makes the speed delta you need slightly lower.

[Cs98]

Indeed, something did shift during that 2021 season when Honda brought their latest creation, but you can't really say that aero efficiency is bs...

Well 2021 is evidence of that in and of itself. Honda was probably just on the heels of Merc in terms of engine power, yet the Merc was faster on the straights with greater aero efficiency.

[AR3-GP]

the only thing that propel the car to those top speed is the engine.people are so eager to talk about ferrari engine but redbull its always about aero efficiency,i find it odd and very curious.you cant look at ferrari over just one lap in a quali trim,you have to look at a series of laps the ferrari ers fall short,thats one of reason they cant repeat their quali miracle over a race distance.

I think you are interpreting this the wrong way. There is no conspiracy to discredit Honda. The have the best hybrid system by some margin and it allows them all sorts of flexibility with strategy and overtaking.

[dialtone]

They had 10+ laps last year to pass LEC, almost all of those with DRS, similar thing in Miami where they had 8 laps to pass and yet Max was able only to pass into T1 after LEC botched T17 allowed Max to beat him in acceleration.

Top speed differences between these 2 cars are too small to be enough to pass easily when both are setup for low drag, you need to set it up over a few laps. For other cars it's a different deal though.

You are talking as if the only reason Leclerc was holding on was because of straight line speed and not because the F1-75 was a genuinely quick car. In Baku Max was on the edge of DRS for pretty much all of those laps, with Leclerc in the tow of Perez. That's a difficult pass even with better SL-speed. In Miami Max wasn't even in DRS for the first 6 or 7 laps because the Ferrari was faster in S1.

SL-speed just makes the speed delta you need slightly lower.

F1-75 was universally seen as a draggy car. If I remember correctly, which I may not, Perez was about 2s ahead of Charles which means practically no tow (maybe 2kph) as I've already posted many times these cars aren't very tow sensitive until you're within 1s in front.

Max was in DRS range for a good chunk of laps, as far as I recall it went as in Imola where LEC tried to open a gap but never went above 1.5s ahead and mostly was within 1s and in DRS, Max definitely had 3 or more laps in DRS range there.

Anyway my point stands... It takes 2 seconds in real time to pass an F1 car with 15kph speed advantage, they have 4 seconds of DRS in the main straight, IMHO that's tough.

[Sieper]

I predicted the pole right, Ferrari have an efficient car this year. Still, a very good lap by Lec, deserved pole. the Ferrari clearly better balanced in those tight corners. Mercedes was a let down, didn’t expect them to be off. And certainly not by this much. So they have an inefficient car this year. On these highspeed tracks they will not be able to compete.

its all about engine power and deployment ferrari was already raking poles last year these efficient or inefficient thing its just bs.the top two cars in the straights are the honda powered cars of alpha and redbull. do you think the alpha is the paragon of efficiency,in a normal track they are among the backmarkers on these track they are q3 and faster than merc a car that was second last race.merc domination ended when honda built a better pu than theirs and wont recover until the next set of regulation in 2026.

Alpha Tauri has a very low downforce rearwing. Was shown tonight in detail by Ernest Knoops on viaplay. It’s quite special among the field. That is why they are so fast here. Not the Honda pu alone.

[Cs98]

They had 10+ laps last year to pass LEC, almost all of those with DRS, similar thing in Miami where they had 8 laps to pass and yet Max was able only to pass into T1 after LEC botched T17 allowed Max to beat him in acceleration.

Top speed differences between these 2 cars are too small to be enough to pass easily when both are setup for low drag, you need to set it up over a few laps. For other cars it's a different deal though.

You are talking as if the only reason Leclerc was holding on was because of straight line speed and not because the F1-75 was a genuinely quick car. In Baku Max was on the edge of DRS for pretty much all of those laps, with Leclerc in the tow of Perez. That's a difficult pass even with better SL-speed. In Miami Max wasn't even in DRS for the first 6 or 7 laps because the Ferrari was faster in S1.

SL-speed just makes the speed delta you need slightly lower.

F1-75 was universally seen as a draggy car. If I remember correctly, which I may not, Perez was about 2s ahead of Charles which means practically no tow (maybe 2kph) as I've already posted many times these cars aren't very tow sensitive until you're within 1s in front.

Max was in DRS range for a good chunk of laps, as far as I recall it went as in Imola where LEC tried to open a gap but never went above 1.5s ahead and mostly was within 1s and in DRS, Max definitely had 3 or more laps in DRS range there.

Anyway my point stands... It takes 2 seconds in real time to pass an F1 car with 15kph speed advantage, they have 4 seconds of DRS in the main straight, IMHO that's tough.

2kph? Definitely more. People underestimate the tow on these new cars. If you're within 3-4s it's very noticeable in the telemetry, especially on long straights like that.

The F1-75 was not universally seen as a draggy car. On the one end of the drag spectrum you had RB, Williams on the other you had your Mercs and McLarens. The Ferrari would've been somewhere in the middle. When they actually used circuit specific wings they were competitive on the straights.

Opening DRS doesn't magically make you fly by the car ahead, even in a RB with superior SL-speed. You need to be sufficiently close within DRS.

[Wouter]

Explained: Norris and Tsunoda first F1 drivers to take sprint qualifying gamble

Lando Norris and Yuki Tsunoda won’t be able to participate in the third part of Saturday’s first Formula 1 sprint qualifying
at the Azerbaijan Grand Prix after taking a tyre gamble in qualifying.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/land ... /10462036/

[dialtone]

You are talking as if the only reason Leclerc was holding on was because of straight line speed and not because the F1-75 was a genuinely quick car. In Baku Max was on the edge of DRS for pretty much all of those laps, with Leclerc in the tow of Perez. That's a difficult pass even with better SL-speed. In Miami Max wasn't even in DRS for the first 6 or 7 laps because the Ferrari was faster in S1.

SL-speed just makes the speed delta you need slightly lower.

F1-75 was universally seen as a draggy car. If I remember correctly, which I may not, Perez was about 2s ahead of Charles which means practically no tow (maybe 2kph) as I've already posted many times these cars aren't very tow sensitive until you're within 1s in front.

Max was in DRS range for a good chunk of laps, as far as I recall it went as in Imola where LEC tried to open a gap but never went above 1.5s ahead and mostly was within 1s and in DRS, Max definitely had 3 or more laps in DRS range there.

Anyway my point stands... It takes 2 seconds in real time to pass an F1 car with 15kph speed advantage, they have 4 seconds of DRS in the main straight, IMHO that's tough.

2kph? Definitely more. People underestimate the tow on these new cars. If you're within 3-4s it's very noticeable in the telemetry, especially on long straights like that.

The F1-75 was not universally seen as a draggy car. On the one end of the drag spectrum you had RB, Williams on the other you had your Mercs and McLarens. The Ferrari would've been somewhere in the middle. When they actually used circuit specific wings they were competitive on the straights.

Opening DRS doesn't magically make you fly by the car ahead, even in a RB with superior SL-speed. You need to be sufficiently close within DRS.

Here you go: viewtopic.php?t=30435 after 2.5s there's no slipstream. Analysis with telemetry and on a track with a very long straight which is Miami, just like Baku. After 2s there's maybe 3kph more in tow in a long straight like after T16 in Miami.

Regarding the car, yeah I agree it was mid of the pack, but I'm talking relative to the RBR, and relative to that it was very draggy, we're comparing speeds between RBR and Ferrari so my comparisons take that into account.

Would you mind clarifying what your last sentence is in reference to?

[dialtone]

Just to be further clear, the tow situation could be different in hungary or spain, but here in a low DF track you just have much less wing and tow benefits you less than DRS.

[AR3-GP]

F1-75 was universally seen as a draggy car. If I remember correctly, which I may not, Perez was about 2s ahead of Charles which means practically no tow (maybe 2kph) as I've already posted many times these cars aren't very tow sensitive until you're within 1s in front.

Max was in DRS range for a good chunk of laps, as far as I recall it went as in Imola where LEC tried to open a gap but never went above 1.5s ahead and mostly was within 1s and in DRS, Max definitely had 3 or more laps in DRS range there.

Anyway my point stands... It takes 2 seconds in real time to pass an F1 car with 15kph speed advantage, they have 4 seconds of DRS in the main straight, IMHO that's tough.

2kph? Definitely more. People underestimate the tow on these new cars. If you're within 3-4s it's very noticeable in the telemetry, especially on long straights like that.

The F1-75 was not universally seen as a draggy car. On the one end of the drag spectrum you had RB, Williams on the other you had your Mercs and McLarens. The Ferrari would've been somewhere in the middle. When they actually used circuit specific wings they were competitive on the straights.

Opening DRS doesn't magically make you fly by the car ahead, even in a RB with superior SL-speed. You need to be sufficiently close within DRS.

Here you go: viewtopic.php?t=30435 after 2.5s there's no slipstream. Analysis with telemetry and on a track with a very long straight which is Miami, just like Baku. After 2s there's maybe 3kph more in tow in a long straight like after T16 in Miami.

Regarding the car, yeah I agree it was mid of the pack, but I'm talking relative to the RBR, and relative to that it was very draggy, we're comparing speeds between RBR and Ferrari so my comparisons take that into account.

Would you mind clarifying what your last sentence is in reference to?

You can't really compare slip stream to last year. Several drivers have pointed out that it's harder to follow this year which means that the slipstream is stronger this year.