Wheel base and racing line

[mike]

Again I saw a moto GP race 1 week after a F1 race, funny how things work. And again overtaking goes to moto GP again.
could wheel base have some thing to do with it?
the way I see it, long wheel base cars can only take a certain to achieve great speed, while short wheel base car can have the ability to take a different line and still maintain a good overall speed. Like if you are driving a bus you really can only take 1 line through a corner or you crash, while if you drive my mate's cappuccino you have a few more line to drive at 95% of the speed.
And when you overtake you HAVE to take a different line than the driver in front or you crash, and if you do take a different line with a long wheel base car we will be slower than if you are in a short wheel base car?? In other words short wheel base cars give the drivers more option before/during/after the corner hence they could attack more?
And if you look at the characteristics of a short wheel base car, agile in corners and more weight transfer longitudinally in the straight, will driver input be more important to the overall pace of the car?

[hulmerist]

odd how one of the best circuits on the motogp circuit is the worst in f1

[timbo]

It's track width, not wheelbase. If F1 car misses apex by half a meter it still has the line and may block it. If motorcycle is off the line by half a meter = it is passed.

[mike]

It's track width, not wheelbase. If F1 car misses apex by half a meter it still has the line and may block it. If motorcycle is off the line by half a meter = it is passed.

yes it may block but then the car behind can gear up of an attack on the exit rather than just follow. its more about an entirely different way to corner rather than just the entry.

[mike]

looking back at the length wheelbase of yesteryears when overtaking was present they are about 40+cm shorter than current cars, but they also are 2 metres wide, which is why i think short wheelbase cars allow the drivers to take different lines and hence more overtaking.

thoughts??? any1?

[Jersey Tom]

Doubt it.

There are a lot of things that were significantly different back then. I really doubt global scaling of wheelbase or track has anything to do with it.

Who is to say there was really that much more overtaking then? Do you have data that shows this?

[xpensive]

Myself, I still belive that wheelbase and trackwhith are just geometrical parameters here.

Would you agree with me JT, if I'm so bold as to say that traction out of the corner means more in terms of overtaking in the next?

[Jersey Tom]

Well, the best place for overtaking is on the straights, one way or another.

Could be by carrying more speed through the previous corner.
...or by getting power down better on exit.
...or by slipstreaming.
...or by outbraking.

First thing that needs to be established is if there really was better racing "back in the day." How many overtakings were there on average in a race in 1965? 1975? 1985? 1995?

Also, how many overtaking opportunities are there, in relation to those that are made?

Last year for example you'd have either Ferrari or McLaren (or both) absolutely rocket away from the field. No chance in overtaking them, just because you're not going to be able to get anywhere near them.

The nice thing about NASCAR is that there are always those opportunities, with a 43 car field and everyone running in close proximity. Additionally, no one has the perfect racing line.

But with regard to wheel base and track width, no matter what your arrangement on a 4-wheel vehicle there will always be an ideal line. Staying on the line will be fastest [neglecting grip level changes of the surface]. Doesn't make overtaking any easier. MotoGP may be a good bit different given that you have a 2-wheeler. Vehicle dynamics there are much much different.

I suspect what might help is a significantly different tire. Something that doesn't have a knife-edge performance envelope.

[xpensive]

For those who never seen overtaking, I wish that Monza 1971 was available on Blu-ray.

[timbo]

For those who never seen overtaking, I wish that Monza 1971 was available on Blu-ray.

Yea, but apart from 5 guys on top, how much action there were?

[xpensive]

Chris Amon losing his visor at 200 mph, would be enough of action to behold.

[mike]

Well, the best place for overtaking is on the straights, one way or another.

Could be by carrying more speed through the previous corner.
...or by getting power down better on exit.
...or by slipstreaming.
...or by outbraking.

shorter wheelbase will allow the driver to select a different line throught a corner and therefore get more power down that is with the assumption that the car in front defends.
when a car defends they are rarely on the ideal line, mostly they will turn in earlier to block the inside line, if the car behind is able to travel as quick as the car in front taking the wider line in and the tighter line out, then they could have a shot in the exit to drive next to the car in front and could have better slipstream

[timbo]

shorter wheelbase will allow the driver to select a different line throught a corner and therefore get more power down that is with the assumption that the car in front defends.

This is your theory you keep repeating. Any basis on that?

[mike]

shorter wheelbase will allow the driver to select a different line throught a corner and therefore get more power down that is with the assumption that the car in front defends.

This is your theory you keep repeating. Any basis on that?

longer wheel base car have a greater turning circle
and because of that travelling at any given corner short wheel base cars would have less steering angle, hence the greater selection of lines

[timbo]

longer wheel base car have a greater turning circle
and because of that travelling at any given corner short wheel base cars would have less steering angle, hence the greater selection of lines

Yes, but unless you're talking dramatically shorter wheelbase or VERY tight curves difference would be not that great.
Besides, the greater selection of lines does not mean automatically that there's wider "zone" around optimal curve where you steel go reasonably fast. Once you're not on the best line you're loosing. Also, short wheelbase cars are less stable in faster corners that would make it harder to follow.