2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[Zynerji]

no is not a dumb motor ,it can spin over 200000 rpm and work at a excess temperature of over 1000 degree celcius,it can recover energy ,deploy energy and work to overcome turbo lag .in a nutshell it work in extreme conditions which need high level knowledge in material science and big budget.a jet engine is just a big shaft with lots fans ,a rocket engine is just a hallow tube that burn rocket fuel but we all know is not that simply.

Not impressed. Not at all. Fluid bearings, investment casting water jackets, Tesla cars open patents for best asynchronous motors of all time.
It's about the assembly, optimization of windings, and tuning the "harmonics" of the M->G->M control strategy.
The 2014 units while not as powerful as today's units would still be beneficial from a spec unit perspective, and probably way less expensive.

electromagnetic bearings active 10000 times per second for survival seem quite complicated and expensive
transistors generating precision-timed precision-shaped excitation pulses for 2000 revs/sec aren't mass-produced ?

I don't believe asynchronous anything

Bearings electrically cycling at 0.01 Mhz frequency doesnt scare me in the modern world. The precision-shaped excitation pulses are part of the MG strategy that I've already given credence.

I misspoke about the asynchronous motor. I meant the

[Tommy Cookers]

the MG strategy that I've already given credence.

I must have missed that
should I believe Tesla's IPMSynRM is the answer ? (btw others eg Toyota made these before Tesla)

F1 hybrid runs the electrical machines primarily at their best speed and torque (for best efficiency) ...
by using a mechanical gearbox (keeping the revs (voltage) high and the torque (current) non-high) and similarly .....
by dismantling and reassembling generated electricity for use predominantly at best speed and torque

your approach (without gears) seemingly has neither of these elements
its electrical machines needing to run eg '0% - 100% rpm and 100% - 0% torque' will have lower efficiencies
their drives (that the FIA loves to call a CU) similarly will have much lower efficiencies most of the time

there is nothing clever about having gearless EVs

[noname]

That's pretty much what the MGU-H is. A dumb motor on the turbo shaft. The only addition is that it can act as a motor and spin up the turbine, which is trivial.

I think the complexities lay in the windings and the control strategy. The hardware seems pretty common.

no is not a dumb motor ,it can spin over 200000 rpm and work at a excess temperature of over 1000 degree celcius,it can recover energy ,deploy energy and work to overcome turbo lag .in a nutshell it work in extreme conditions which need high level knowledge in material science and big budget.a jet engine is just a big shaft with lots fans ,a rocket engine is just a hallow tube that burn rocket fuel but we all know is not that simply.

Ability to deploy energy comes down to electronics (AC/DC inverter) controlling the electric machine. The machine itself is the same.

Max temperature the motor can survive is about 250 degC. More than this and magnets will de-magnetise, and windings will melt. That's why they have to be water cooled, usually turbine end comes with water jacket as well.

BTW, company that developed turbo-generator for Porsche's LeMans challenger later added compressor on the other end. This way electric motor inside become MGU-H without changing a bit. Even inverter was the same.
More details available in 10/2017 MTZ.

[Bill]

I think the complexities lay in the windings and the control strategy. The hardware seems pretty common.

no is not a dumb motor ,it can spin over 200000 rpm and work at a excess temperature of over 1000 degree celcius,it can recover energy ,deploy energy and work to overcome turbo lag .in a nutshell it work in extreme conditions which need high level knowledge in material science and big budget.a jet engine is just a big shaft with lots fans ,a rocket engine is just a hallow tube that burn rocket fuel but we all know is not that simply.

Ability to deploy energy comes down to electronics (AC/DC inverter) controlling the electric machine. The machine itself is the same.

Max temperature the motor can survive is about 250 degC. More than this and magnets will de-magnetise, and windings will melt. That's why they have to be water cooled, usually turbine end comes with water jacket as well.

BTW, company that developed turbo-generator for Porsche's LeMans challenger later added compressor on the other end. This way electric motor inside become MGU-H without changing a bit. Even inverter was the same.
More details available in 10/2017 MTZ.

the vw group which porsche is a member of wants f1 to do away with mguh so if you are implying they have some sort of competency in these area u wrong.they want f1 to lower themselves at there level because that they only way they know they can be reasonable be competitive.f1 is about extremes the engine has pistols ,conrods just like your road car but they work at extremely low tolerance which add cost and complexity.

[OO7]

This has probably already been covered, but I was wondering, would it be correct to assume that one of the options drivers/engineers adjust with these PUs, is trading drivability for power and vice versa throughout the course of a race?

[Zynerji]

This has probably already been covered, but I was wondering, would it be correct to assume that one of the options drivers/engineers adjust with these PUs, is trading drivability for power and vice versa throughout the course of a race?

I think it's a matter of tiny percentages. Input shaping for the drive motors may have loss, where a binary on/off may be more efficient. I think lots of the software dev on the hybrid system in the last 3 years have been very small efficiency optimizations instead of big changes.

[Zynerji]

https://phys.org/news/2023-06-superlubr ... ction.html

Let's get this going for the 2026 engines please! Could they move to lapped pistons?

From the Article:

Scientists at the Department of Energy's Oak Ridge National Laboratory have invented a coating that could dramatically reduce friction in common load-bearing systems with moving parts, from vehicle drive trains to wind and hydroelectric turbines. It reduces the friction of steel rubbing on steel at least a hundredfold. The novel ORNL coating could help grease a U.S. economy that each year loses more than $1 trillion to friction and wear—equivalent to 5% of the gross national product.

"When components are sliding past each other, there's friction and wear," said Jun Qu, leader of ORNL's Surface Engineering and Tribology group. Tribology, from the Greek word for rubbing, is the science and technology of interacting surfaces in relative motion, such as gears and bearings. "If we reduce friction, we can reduce energy consumption. If we reduce wear, we can elongate the lifespan of the system for better durability and reliability."

The new nanotubes do not provide superlubricity until they are damaged. "The carbon nanotubes are destroyed in the rubbing but become a new thing," Qu said. "The key part is those fractured carbon nanotubes are pieces of graphene. Those graphene pieces are smeared and connected to the contact area, becoming what we call tribofilm, a coating formed during the process. Then both contact surfaces are covered by some graphene-rich coating. Now, when they rub each other, it's graphene on graphene."

The presence of even one drop of oil is crucial to achieving superlubricity. "We tried it without oil; it didn't work," Qu said. "The reason is, without oil, friction removes the carbon nanotubes too aggressively. Then the tribofilm cannot form nicely or survive long. It's like an engine without oil. It smokes in a few minutes, whereas one with oil can easily run for years."

The ORNL coating's superior slipperiness has staying power. Superlubricity persisted in tests of more than 500,000 rubbing cycles. Kumara tested the performances for continuous sliding over three hours, then one day and later 12 days. "We still got superlubricity," he said. "It's stable."

[OO7]

This has probably already been covered, but I was wondering, would it be correct to assume that one of the options drivers/engineers adjust with these PUs, is trading drivability for power and vice versa throughout the course of a race?

I think it's a matter of tiny percentages. Input shaping for the drive motors may have loss, where a binary on/off may be more efficient. I think lots of the software dev on the hybrid system in the last 3 years have been very small efficiency optimizations instead of big changes.

What I mean is, the electrical side can provide torque fill-in which aids drivability (as well as performance), but it may be possible if the driver and chassis can handle it, to sacrifice that aspect for a higher electrical power output (within the limit of course) and higher average power?

EDIT:
I think it may be better to move my questions and Zynerji's answers to the following thread (2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula) here: viewtopic.php?t=9259

[mzso]

Reading back, I'm kind of lost in arguments and counter arguments.

So ultimately, how and when when they can regenerate? Any time as long es the (mechanical) power output is dependent on the power pedal position? Including no power, full regen?

[mzso]

That's pretty much what the MGU-H is. A dumb motor on the turbo shaft. The only addition is that it can act as a motor and spin up the turbine, which is trivial.

I think the complexities lay in the windings and the control strategy. The hardware seems pretty common.

no is not a dumb motor ,it can spin over 200000 rpm and work at a excess temperature of over 1000 degree celcius,it can recover energy ,deploy energy and work to overcome turbo lag .in a nutshell it work in extreme conditions which need high level knowledge in material science and big budget.a jet engine is just a big shaft with lots fans ,a rocket engine is just a hallow tube that burn rocket fuel but we all know is not that simply.

Why does it at temperatures over 1000?
Recovering and deploying energy is inherent to every electrical motor. Helping with turbo lag is nothing special for the motor it's just rotating. So these are totally basic.

Working at 200000 rpm is a challenge for bearings, but I guess you can consider that special, if the mentioned Porsche system only runs a turbine at low RPM in comparison.

[wuzak]

Reading back, I'm kind of lost in arguments and counter arguments.

So ultimately, how and when when they can regenerate? Any time as long es the (mechanical) power output is dependent on the power pedal position? Including no power, full regen?

My take, they can recover energy when:
Braking
Lift-and-Coasting
At full throttle at end of straights - up to 100kW
At partial throttle, when the power demand is less than the ICE can deliver - So if the demand is 300kW and the ICE can deliver 400kW then you could recover 100kW.

[mzso]

Reading back, I'm kind of lost in arguments and counter arguments.

So ultimately, how and when when they can regenerate? Any time as long es the (mechanical) power output is dependent on the power pedal position? Including no power, full regen?

My take, they can recover energy when:
Braking
Lift-and-Coasting
At full throttle at end of straights - up to 100kW
At partial throttle, when the power demand is less than the ICE can deliver - So if the demand is 300kW and the ICE can deliver 400kW then you could recover 100kW.

This seems to cover everything. From no power (lift and coast), to full power. So I guess the better question is, when can't they recover?

[wuzak]

Reading back, I'm kind of lost in arguments and counter arguments.

So ultimately, how and when when they can regenerate? Any time as long es the (mechanical) power output is dependent on the power pedal position? Including no power, full regen?

My take, they can recover energy when:
Braking
Lift-and-Coasting
At full throttle at end of straights - up to 100kW
At partial throttle, when the power demand is less than the ICE can deliver - So if the demand is 300kW and the ICE can deliver 400kW then you could recover 100kW.

This seems to cover everything. From no power (lift and coast), to full power. So I guess the better question is, when can't they recover?

I think there probably won't be too much lift-and-coast like we know it now. More likely they will change to generation at the end of straights.

I also think the chances of recovering under partial throttle will be limited.

There will have to be a balance between recovery and deployment. Go too early on the straight and you will be passed easily, go too late, and there will not be enough energy to deploy out of the next corner.

[Zynerji]

My take, they can recover energy when:
Braking
Lift-and-Coasting
At full throttle at end of straights - up to 100kW
At partial throttle, when the power demand is less than the ICE can deliver - So if the demand is 300kW and the ICE can deliver 400kW then you could recover 100kW.

This seems to cover everything. From no power (lift and coast), to full power. So I guess the better question is, when can't they recover?

I think there probably won't be too much lift-and-coast like we know it now. More likely they will change to generation at the end of straights.

I also think the chances of recovering under partial throttle will be limited.

There will have to be a balance between recovery and deployment. Go too early on the straight and you will be passed easily, go too late, and there will not be enough energy to deploy out of the next corner.

That sounds like watching paint dry while falling down a set of stairs in slow motion...

[saviour stivala]

"There will have to be a balance between recovery and deployment" There was always a balance between recovery and deployment since the introduction of the hybrid power unit. Because recovery can only happen at certain points around a lap, Deploying needs be strategically deployed at strategic points around a lap. In 2026 with no MGU-H, deploying strategy will be more important.